javascriptroom / culture Goto Github PK

I haven't seen him around the js room in ages. He seems to be active in the Ruby and Haskell rooms, and doesn't mind being de-ownered: http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/28283531#28283531

For those of you who don't want to follow the link, here's how it went down:

Zirak: Hey Jan Dvorak, you are my love my angel, why you treat me like potato?
Zirak: Also, mind if I de-owner you?
Jan Dvorak: I don't mind

So I'll remove him since that's his wish, just wanted to lay it bare.

I would kindly like to ask someone if they could intervene with an RO that keeps harassing me.

ssube is basically constantly intimidating me with kicks and today I've been kicked for practically no reason whatsoever, to my opinion.

I'd like to start a vote to remove NDugger from the list of Room Owners for regular and repeated 'trolling' and working to escalate instead of de-escalate drama. While we all have our bad days (I certainly do) his regularity in being on 'the wrong side' of room drama is making other RO's job difficult at times. This would not exempt him from becoming an RO in the future.

Use thumb up and down to vote. We can get a full count/list of emoji from the github API.

👍: Accept recommendation to remove
👎: Reject and vote keep ndugger

Leaving +1 or -1 comments is a valid voting system, but it's not a good system. We should have a good voting system.

Requirements:

• Allow "for" and "against" votes, one per user.
• A user can change or retract their vote at any time, erasing the previous vote.

It has been discussed to only allow votes from other RO's count. I disagree with this for two (main) reasons:

1. we are biased.
2. room culture is driven by more than just the RO's. "the public" should have a say who is and who is not an RO.

Now, there should of course be considerations, like;
have you been part of the room for more than today (or X time) ??
are you a bot ??
??

Please discuss.

This is a serious issue. That monkey is a damned nuisance, and I won't tolerate him any longer! Bring back the arrow!

We used to have room challenges, example here.

Is this something we want to try out again?
Would people be interested in having these challenges?
Where would voting happen?

I was thinking about proposing two more owners but I'm a little concerned about the number of owners being a little high.

Is this something that should concern us (high number of owners)?

I see being an RO as a very limited sort of public servant, so I think we should keep all discussions related to electing, impeaching, and debates between ROs in the public repo.

It's important that both existing ROs and other users be able to support or voice concerns about an RO, especially when we're discussing adding or removing someone.

This is not about trolls in general (I agree with @MadaraUchiha there, the potential for abuse is a problem), just votes and group discussions related to RO status.

Thoughts?

We set up rules for a reason. It was voted upon and agreed with. Anytime a motion is raised to add/remove an RO it's to be brought to a vote with a 72 hour period to ensure that all members, not just ROs can voice their opinion. Instead @Cerbrus took a vote in room, a majority of ROs voted yes and @loktar00 removed him. Now, as stated by J, it was a non-issue, but why are we skipping the agreed methods of resolution?

Kialo is a discussion site where discussions are based on a tree of claims. Each claim can contain sub-claims that support or oppose it. I've formatted this issue like a Kialo discussion so you can see how it is organized. Each line represents one claim, and indenting represents sub-claims.

❔ The JS room discussion should take place on Kialo, rather than GitHub.

• ✔️ Kialo is designed so that each argument or claim can be discussed by itself.
  • ✔️ This prevents arguments about different points from ending up in the same thread, and making it hard to follow.
  • ✔️ Claims can be linked as pros or cons for multiple parent claims, as this one is.
• ✔️ Kialo has better tools than GitHub for managing discussions and arguments.
  • ✔️ You can vote on individual claims and their pros and cons.
  • ✔️ Claims can be linked as pros or cons for multiple parent claims, as this one is.
  • ✔️ Poorly presented claims can be flagged for improvement or removal.

• ❌ Most people in the JS room have GitHub accounts, but do not have Kialo accounts.
• ❌ Kialo discussions are not editable by the public.
  • ✔️ Non-ROs would require a RO to approve any issues they wish to discuss.
  • ✔️ JS room discussions would need to be private (invite-only) anyway.
  • ❌ This prevents trolls and unhelpful discussions.
• ❌ Kialo is beta software. There are minor usability issues and bugs, as well as frequent patches.
• ❌ Kialo doesn't do as well with opinion-based discussion.
• ❌ The moderation repo wouldn't fit well on Kialo.
  • ✔️ Moderation issues are typically more opinion-based.
    • ✔️ Kialo doesn't do as well with opinion-based discussion.
  • ❌ Kialo has visibility settings that allow discussions to be private.

I doubt moving from GitHub is the right thing to do, but I'm suggesting this here to hear your thoughts. This is mainly driven by the desire to avoid unpleasant back-and-forth arguing by replacing it with something more structured.

I'm writing this to escalate the continued negative impact Arrow has had in the room.

It might just be personal, but I don't see it that way. The last major quarrel was on 9/9, starting with this message. Vague question, so I tried to make sure he understood what he was talking about, as he has a reputation for asking about confusing unrelated topics that make you wonder whether he's done any research. The reply immediately comes off as "I'm better than you and I don't appreciate you trying to help me, so go away". As a normal person, I ignore it to make him understand that I can properly help him, and do it in a way that, if responded to correctly, narrows down what his question really is. After one more message, it becomes clear he's unwilling to use any of the information that I'm giving and even googling, which might be fine if he knew his fair share about the subject and didn't want to go on a google hunt, but I don't think he gets to do that. At that point I just ignore his last message because I don't have time for him, hoping he would actually be googling it.

He soon came back with this very vague message, missing a lot of context. Luggage comes to the rescue and a fairly civil discussion between them starts, still showing how little effort Arrow is willing to do, and from there the conversation rapidly degenerates. Not only do I find this quite offensive and against the spirit of the room, but didn't we decide to kick people using these kinds of abbreviations, after warnings, a while ago? I might be completely wrong, I couldn't find a reference for it.

I will admit to have responded quite badly and there's no excuses for that, but it shouldn't have gotten to that in the first place. It wouldn't be a problem if I was slightly more mature, but by then, an RO should have already stepped in. Then, this tipped me over the top, as well as this, providing more evidence for how little effort he put into reading messages like my reply to Kendall asking a similar question without accusing me aggressively from not very long before.

I'm then not sure where this almost nice, but not at all message came from. At least it felt good because he said I was romanian, and I don't get that a lot in the room ;)

Ben comes in to mitigate, starting with Arrow. I guess he didn't tell me anything because he assumed I was more mature and not at that level of being triggered. Arrow then pings me with semi-apologies that are still meant to clearly imply that it's my fault for all of this, and I do the non-mature thing for assuming he meant his apoligies. I had 3 options: dropping it (which in hindsight is what I should have done), being a dick about it and telling him that I didn't believe it (which is what he did repeatedly), or hoping that he meant what he said, and if he didn't, things wouldn't change much, which seems like a reasonable plan when you have faith in humanity.

The conversation continues in its own head-shaking way until I get so upset that I just need to take a break and leave. Yes, this makes me an easy target for trolls, but what I was more angry of (and is the reason this issue exists) was that nobody seemed to be getting involved.

He then comes back today (10/9 european) asking for more advice on that topic. I had a night to calm down, and even if he didn't ping me, I don't think I was wrong in providing relevant things to research. Sure, this could have been worded better and it was meant to be somewhat mocking, after he keeps on providing so little information and not taking any apparent steps to help luggage help him (it was fairly obvious that it was what it was, and luggage was clearly not asking about what he answered, but about more details), and the conversation goes on for a while, as I somewhat aggressively keep on providing more useful information for him, and in the meantime I somewhat give up on actually trying to help him knowing that he wouldn't listen, and just keep on sending him the same information he's clearly not trying to understand, I guess because it makes me feel superior, and getting more and more angry as I saw a few members keeping on trying to help him. And that leads to this issue.

After I began writing, he came back with this comment. In other circumstances it would have been fine to ping me 3 times with it, but it just added to my irritation. Again, I don't know where that comment came from. Maybe he meant it, I like to think he did, but it didn't seem to explain how he's been behaving, so I have trouble trusting that.

This was a somewhat detailed commentary of the last things that grinded me up, and while I was never this annoyed by Arrow, there have been quite similar conversation over time, where he just wouldn't listen and keep on asking questions, and everyone reading this probably remembers many of them, so I haven't spent time fishing them from the transcript.

One thing I haven't seen is him contributing to the room in any way. He may genuinely have, and maybe I wasn't around to witness that, but it seems all he's done is using us as toys spooning him with information.

I'm not sure if there are any lessons to learn for people reading this. Surely I have issues myself and I'm working towards fixing them, and while I doubt Arrow will do anything to change his behaviour towards the room, I hope he does.

I'm not asking for him to be banned, although if it was up to me, he would have been. If I had that ability, I would also probably have behaved far more responsibly either way, but I still think it's important for this to be escalated, and to think about every time Arrow and people like him are asking for help

I'd like to self-nominate myself. I know I had been stupid in past and I have since then matured a lot and am usually active in the JS Room. I believe I should be a room owner again.

Sometimes owners disagree with the behavior of a proposal of a specific RO about something.

I propose such disagreements should be brought to the attention of other ROs through GH issues in this repo (and not via the other usual alternatives).

We are a public chat, and I don't think any decisions made behind "closed doors" should stay that way. I understand the comfort of talking privately, but ultimately our discussions and proposed changes have a public impact to the room.

I vote anything private once resolved by the owners, become public and allow other room members to comment if they so wish.

@benjamingr brings up a good point when it comes to private repos not allowing this, so I'm not sure on the technical side how we can make this happen, but I think it would go a long way in showing we are a kinder gentler JS room.

So, Mosho and phenomnomnominal had an argument and acted immaturely - kicking eachother a few times.

Some owners feel like they should be removed.
Some owners don't.

Some peeps who are currently owners of the JavaScript Room org aren't room owners. As an extension to #11, the list should be kept in sync, and people who are de-ownered in room should also be de-ownered in the org.

If anyone has any issues or questions related to the ES room please discuss

Anyone can make a blog post if they want as long as it is relevant and I can make you an admin on the blog.

Kevin B for RO.

Already have http://culture.javascriptroom.com which forwards to this repo

Make any other requests here.

This guy's an RO, but shows up in the room only every so often, and as of late it seems like it's always to pick a fight or demean someone. It's gotten to the point that every time I see him in the room, it's always the start of something dramatic.

Examples
Here is the latest one between he and I

Insulting Cereal

Florian

That's just what I managed to pull off his history. If this guy's repeatedly just going to pop in, fire off a few insults and then not say anything else, why is he a RO?

Should we enforce a policy on what messages get starred? Should context be relevant?

Do we unstar NSFW?

Do we unstar messages containing words like "fuck" and "shit"?

Do we only want professional messages (relating to JS etc) to be starred?

What do you think? Could be added to cap, or could be done elsewhere.

I'd like to formally nominate GNi33 for room owner.

He is a positive influence and a responsible person in the room. He's been with us for 5 years already (more?). He was a room owner before at one point (up to 2014) and was removed at the great purge (when there were problems with the community managers at StackOverflow).

Now that he's active again - I'd like to vote for reinstating him as room owner.

👍 means yes, 👎 means no - RO votes are binding. Vote ends at Aug 7th at the same time. I'd like to ask all ROs to vote or to explicitly opt out (but that's just a personal request).

sometimes owners go MIA. Should we remove them after 30 days of no activity?
Possibly with the understanding that if they return (reasonably) they can regain owner.

Think of it like a proactive cleaning?? discuss.

I noticed he was added back to the room owners by Badgercat on Jan 9th. He hasn't been in the room since December. As the situation stands I vote for his removal as owner.

I'd like to nominate myself for Room Owner

I've been a member for a bit over 3 years now, and I've grown to love room 17, especially Kendall's mom. I may not have spilled many goldfish, but you all kind of know me. I do realize there isn't much of a need for new ROs at this time, and there's no "but" to that.
I currently live in the CEST timezone and am online most of the time, I don't think there's much I can argue for or against myself.

Fun fact: I was nominated by rlemon two years ago, in one of the last room monthly meetings, but there weren't enough people to vote so it kind of just got forgotten

Now that I'm on Jekyll, my blog once again has a RSS feed: https://rkoutnik.com/feed.xml

Can has?

How do we handle votes when a simple majority of current ROs in good standing have cast their vote?

1. vote remains open for 72 hours (the current rules)
2. vote closes immediately (what I think we've usually done)

The rules leave this somewhat open and I think we should clarify.

Since this is an either-or question, let's say thumbsup is option 1 and thumbsdown is option 2.

He was an RO once, I think he did a pretty good job for years helping moderate the room.

He's interested in becoming one again so I'd like to nominate Florian Margaine for room ownership again.

I want to quit dicking around and have the room like it used to be.

We haven't accomplished anything since this GH was started and frankly it's really silly.

I'm curious as to why the hell people are still bending over backwards to help Rachel when she shows up. She's clearly working on a school project, continues to ask half formed questions, with @benjamingr point blank proving the point by googling and pulling up one of her simplest questions on google as the first result.

At this point she's obviously a very lazy vamp, but somehow still ends up getting rewarded for the bad behavior. Can we just agree to cut her off until she learns how to give an MCVE, put some effort into researching her questions, and actually learns how SO works?

As of yesterday, Github introduced a "Reactions" feature to PRs, Comments and (as the most interesting for us) Issues, as described in this blog post

I would propose to use this feature now for any voting process, with only the thumbs up and thumbs down on the original issue post being valid options for a vote.

The votes would be count directly on the issue - post and votes will not clutter the comment section to leave it clean for further discussion.

What do you think about this?

I propose that any future room owner additions and removals should be voted on.

This worked out well when we had meetings.

This issue is to debate @jhawins' room ownership status following the private vote held before in which 10 room owners have voted to remove him, 3 abstained and 3 were against.

This is a plain vote on whether or not he should jhawins should be a room owner in the JavaScript room.

I'll edit things in as you vote.

Votes Jhawins should be a room owner:

Votes Jhawins should not be a room owner

Benjamin Gruenbaum
Cerbrus
ssube
Kendall
Cereal
Madara Uchiha
Zirak

Lemon pls!

let's end the year off with another RO vote.

Ben has been active and proven knowledgeable and responsible. He'd also be the third Ben on the RO list. Third times a charm!

I propose this, considering room-related discussions are OT and are better discussed elsewhere. Just my 0.0001 BTC.

...

Context: #6

This is a thread to discuss whether or not we should re-add phenomnomnominal as a room owner.

Recently a user was added without prior discussion or announcement. How do we handle existing ROs stepping outside of the process?

Why is this hosted on github, as opposed to something like slack or discord?

@rlemon had a nice idea last night: a way for people to do 1-on-1 lessons.

For example, @Zirak wants to learn how to make a baby, so he posts something somewhere saying "Hi Master, Teach Me How To Make A Baby!", and someone knowledgeable enough will pick it, and they'll do a 1-on-1 to teach @Zirak how to make a baby.

Open questions:

• Which platform should we use to put the posts asking for a master?
• Where should the 1-on-1 happen?

Given our discussions on issue here, I'd like to propose the following:

Issues should remain open for at least 72 hours after the last activity they've had in order to allow discussion to exhaust itself.

Let's vote on it.

I think all existing owners should be owners of the GH org.
Currently, it's completely out of sync.

Any objections?

I added Mosho back before we agreed it should be discussed (also discussed #2 ).

Context here: #2
Let's vote on it.

This is a thread to discuss whether or not we should re-add Neal as a room owner.

Trying to be more active now and less confrontational than I was when I was more active a couple of years ago.

Discuss policies for pinned messages here.

Discuss repercussions as well because an RO will be the one responsible for pinning something deemed "un-pinnable"