fair, just letting you know for the pack in the meantime

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that sounds pretty constructive

from champions.

true..

from champions.

ive found that much of what you suggest as changes to affixes is configurable, i'm not sure if ReSurvival has this or not but an auto worldconfig loader could be added to balance the mod

from champions.

Desecration, Plague and Hasty can all be configured in the ways I described, yes, but the others can't. For those, take them as suggestions for altering the default values in future updates.

I do use Openloader to automatically load and apply datapack alterations, but those aren't really within the scope of many of the changes I'm proposing here.

from champions.

A very thoughtful and constructive critique, thank you for taking the time to write this all up. I will outline some of my thoughts about each section, but just know that these are general impressions and not any sort of final decision about what I will or won't change.

Clarity

Visual information - Icons

Having icons on the screen through particles or an overhead indicator is an interesting idea to make the champions more discernible at a glance, but I worry about the visual clutter that could occur. When it's only one or two affixes this seems fine, but it could become too much on the screen to parse when it gets to four or five affixes. It could be more practical to do something more unique with each affix than just particles, or a mix of particles and other visual cues, but I'm not sure if that'd become another visual overload in another sense if taken too far. It'd be a careful line to avoid crossing.

Written information - Descriptions

Descriptions seems like it would be neat, and not too hard to implement, although I do wonder how to implement it. Your mockup only includes one affix, but what would it look like with multiple? Does each description extend downward? Does it periodically switch descriptions between all affixes?

This is one of those things where I wish Minecraft was a game where HUD elements could be inspected, which would make something like this trivial.

Renaming Affixes

Fair points all around. I'll probably change them in the next major version (1.19 hopefully), to avoid confusion with people playing on the current version suddenly needing to remember new names.

Game Balance

Affixes

As a general note about the gameplay balance of Champions, I will just say that it's very hard for me to know where the sweet spot is for this. Because the mod is included in modpacks that makes dealing with mobs range from very easy to incredibly difficult, everyone has a different sense of how easy or hard the champions are. I've gotten just as many suggestions to buff certain affixes that I've gotten to nerf them.

To outline my general philosophy on gameplay changes, I value feedback about affixes that highlight how an affix is frustrating from a fundamental design flaw and not general number changes. This is why there's configuration options for each affix, so that numbers can be adjusted based on the modpack's expectations. But a design flaw is not so easily rectified and so needs to be changed directly by me. And what I mean by a design flaw is that affixes should be mechanically interesting, increasing the difficulty by forcing players to adopt different tactics, and should not just be designed to arbitrarily extend the fight or designed in a way that makes players feel as if there is no counter.

Hasty

This is a configurable change already. In my testing, I did not find the default value to be too difficult. However, I will reconsider and adjust if needed.

Plagued

This is also a configurable change. However, the idea of having a longer effect on-hit and a shorter effect from the cloud itself is an interesting one that I'll consider.

Desecrating

This one has always been a little difficult to get right. The idea is that the affix forces you to always be moving, and it is intended to be difficult to counter in an enclosed space by design. It is a little random, although the mob should stop moving right before it conjures the cloud as an early warning sign. Changing it to a projectile is an interesting idea, although I worry about having too many of those projectile-type affixes that are very similar to each other in how you avoid them. Maybe a projectile that lands and then conjures the cloud after a certain amount of time.

Shielding

Hmm, I'll need to think on this one. Shielding is meant to force players to really time their attacks correctly and I fear that allowing players to knock mobs back will mitigate some of its intended effect this way, especially against melee-only enemies. But it's something I'll consider.

Arctic

I personally found both Arctic and Enkindling to be rather easy affixes to handle in my testing, the projectiles can sometimes have a hard time hitting you even if you're not actively avoiding them (which is surprising considering they're essentially homing, but that's just how my experience has been). But I'll revisit this and see what can be done.

Reflective

This is another one that's rather hard to get right, and I debated even adding this one at all in the first place. This is part of the reason why I added configuration options for exactly how much damage it reflects back and if it can OHKO you on the rebound to hopefully make it less frustrating to fight against. Making it a timed window is an interesting idea, but I'll have to workshop that a bit first.

Paralyzing

Fair point, I'll look into just making this a very very heavy Slowness debuff. I suppose I could actually make the magnitude configurable also for people who want the total immobility.

Enkindling

An interesting idea, it would make it more distinct from Arctic. I just don't want to copy the Ghast attack exactly, minus the landscape explosion, so there'd have to be something different about it.

Mobs

Fair point, I'll add it as a configurable option. I guess to do this right I would ideally make some kind of system of only allowing or disallowing certain affixes on baby mobs.

Possible Additions

On this topic, refer to my above point about affix design. To summarize, affixes should be mechanically interesting and distinct, forcing players to adopt new tactics without feeling like it's simply extending the fight or introducing unfair mechanics that cannot be countered effectively in some manner.

Also, an additional point, I don't like making affixes out of existing mob abilities. I feel like it just isn't that interesting and takes away some of the identity of the existing Minecraft mobs.

New Affixes

• Blinded - Doable, although seems to favor ranged mobs much more than melee so could be a tricky balancing act.
• Warper - The only problem is that this could become frustrating to fight against in caves or other difficult to navigate areas where mobs teleport away and players cannot find them again because they don't really teleport back like an Enderman (and giving other mobs full Enderman abilities to teleport to-and-fro seems a bit too powerful). This also doesn't really add any sort of gameplay complexity, it just happens and the player can't do much to stop it from teleporting.
• Flinging - Doable
• Shulker - Refer to the above point about mob abilities
• Charger - Interesting and doable
• Evocative - See Shulker
• Stare - Very interesting and doable
• Shielding - Very interesting and doable, could serve as a better replacement for the current Shielding. The Critical hit requirement might be too much, but I'd have to workshop it first.
• Balloon - Doable, I'd have to see it in action first but could be very interesting with some tweaks.
• Medic - My biggest issue with support-themed affixes, and why none currently exist, is that it relies heavily on other mobs being spawned with the mob. This is sometimes the case and sometimes not, and it really makes or breaks the affix's effectiveness. If there's no other mobs, this affix might as well not be on the champion.
• Resistor - See Medic
• Division - Other people have suggested something similar in the past, it's interesting but I'm worried about the idea of duplicating an entity and having a bunch of affixes stacked against you could be too strong.

Negative Affixes

This is a very interesting idea that I never considered. It'd really open up the design space for new affixes when they're not always positive.

Tameable Mobs

There's been suggestions in the past about making non-hostile mobs of any nature able to become champions. A lot of Champions is coded with the assumption that certain behaviors from hostile mobs exist on the entity so something like this is feasible but would require a big overhaul for Champions.

An entire breeding system is also feasible but could take a while to get right and code everything.

Small Sound and Visual Cues

Fair points, I'll see what I can do in this regard.

Misc Config Options

Extra experience points are currently tied to the growth factor value, but making this its own field could be a good idea.

Hiding Champions particles and HUD is indeed already there, it's in champions-server.toml as showHud and showParticles since these should be dictated server-side to avoid players just circumventing this challenge client-side.

from champions.

A very thoughtful and constructive critique, thank you for taking the time to write this all up. I will outline some of my thoughts about each section, but just know that these are general impressions and not any sort of final decision about what I will or won't change.

Thank YOU!

... For taking the time to respond to it point-by-point, I really appreciate you hearing me out! I will, in-kind, respond to comments that I have further suggestions or thoughts on myself. Please do reply again if you could on anything you think is worth continuing discussing! I think the next major Champions version could be really great with, in areas, only a handful of small tweaks needed.

'Having icons for discernability is interesting, but the visual clutter could be problematic by four or five affixes.'

You know, I can see how that'd become majorly problematic with particles. With overhead indicator icons however, this could be done fairly gracefully at up to 6! See the image below. I think it looks pretty cool and imposing, personally! It kind of reminds me of Zenyada from Overwatch. With more than six, you could potentially have them cycle through the next icons, or you could just not display further Affixes at all. There has to be SOME point at which people are just going to go past a point that the mod was never designed around, right?

'Descriptions are doable, but how would it work for multiple affixes? Extend downwards, or periodically switch descriptions?'

At about three blurbs down, it looks about as long as a haikuu, but is still pretty discernable from a quick glance. Any more than that and it starts becoming a paragraph. I would have it so the first three Affixes have their descriptions listed, and then any subsequent descriptions are switched between after about 3 seconds each time.

'Fair points, I'll probably change the names in the next major version.'

Great to hear!

'Affixes should be mechanically interesting, increasing the difficulty by forcing players to adopt different tactics... Shouldn't make players feel as if there is no counter'

Good design philosophy, I dig it! And I can understand the default values being a hard balance to strike. I will be upfront with you and say that my perception of some of these will also have been influenced by my pack having increased the hostile spawn cap previously in addition to another mod improving mob AI too, so my feedback for Haste among a handful of others will not be the most objective.

Hasty

Fair enough. I do feel like the last one I died to though, a Husk, practically teleported towards me with how fast he ran. Apparently the buff is only by 0.25, and that only brings them up to about just under the speed value of a Piglin, but that doesn't feel right... Maybe I'm just crazy, or experience a lag spike as I blinked or something.

Desecrating

I actually really like the design philosophy behind this one, and think it could be really fun to fight against with just a couple small tweaks. I didn't even recognise the stopping as a telegraph. I think a visual effect, like the mob itself emitting smoke momentarily before you get hit with it, paired along with a sound cue, and bringing down the cloud radius to about 3 blocks would make it perfect.

If the projectile redesign route interests you, perhaps it could lob 'splash potions' up through the air? Maybe said splash potions could even move at a slower speed than regular projectiles, eliminating the need for excessive telegraphing.

Shielding

Fair point on knocking back the mob mitigating the need for timing your strikes. Two thoughts: It could either remain immovable but suffer worse knockback when vulnerable, or it could be knock-backable when invulnerable, but only by half as much (or so.) Any feedback at all for landing a strike would be nice, though - Very unsatisfying to feel like you've missed a target you clearly haven't.

Arctic

Straightforward enough to dodge on its own, but in group fights it can be a little hectic, and you do have to aim fairly well to stop the projectiles I feel. I don't hate arctic by any means!

Reflective

I debated even adding this one at all in the first place.

I think that's a sign that it might not have been the right move to add it... Not in its current state, anyways.

This is part of the reason why I added configuration options for exactly how much damage it reflects back and if it can OHKO you on the rebound to hopefully make it less frustrating to fight against.

The server I played on at the time when I fought this guy, Slightly Flavoured, did not have this non-kill feature enabled 😭

Making it a timed window is an interesting idea, but I'll have to workshop that a bit first.

I frankly think it'd solve all it's problems. Right now I think it breaks your design principle of not "introducing unfair mechanics that cannot be countered effectively in some manner." I know you could theoretically use splash potions, but that is a SUPREMELY niche way of balancing it, so much so that I don't think it means much at all. If the window of opportunity is there, then it makes it a super interesting parallel to Shielding, I think, and could be really FUN to fight as opposed to frustrating.

Enkindling

Perhaps the projectile could be lobbed in an arch? While it's impact wouldn't create a crater, it could still set fire to the surrounding area. Not the end of the world if it stays as the brother to Arctic, though.

Mobs - Fair point, I'll add it as a configurable option.
Yesss thank you for the babies config. No more nightmares for me!

I don't like making affixes out of existing mob abilities. I feel like it just isn't that interesting and takes away some of the identity of the existing Minecraft mobs.

Totally understandable!

Blinded - Doable, although seems to favor ranged mobs much more than melee so could be a tricky balancing act.

Hmm... Thought: What if it blinded you, but highlighted the attacker and any entities that extend from it, like arrows? That way, you could still gun for them, but would have less visual information on the surrounding terrain. I've never seen an enemy done like that before, and would certainly force the player to consider their surroundings in a new way!

Warper - Makes cave fights frustrating and doesn't add much complexity.

Damn... I see your point. I was thinking about it in the context of a group fight, where you have to keep extra eyes on the champion teleporting away and sneaking up from behind you whilst you have to deal with other enemies, too. I see how it could be problematic, though, and maybe more effort than it's worth :(

Flinging - Doable
Charger - Interesting and doable
Stare - Very interesting and doable
Shielding - Very interesting and doable, could serve as a better replacement for the current Shielding.

Balloon - Doable, I'd have to see it in action first but could be very interesting with some tweaks.

<3 Your consideration is very much appreciated!

I should mention that I've created the Charger mechanic before on a Zombie in MCreator, and it is SO much fun to fight, and works both with and without a shield. If you're thinking about adding any of these, please make it that one.

Regarding Balloon, I should note that I think the enemy should also suffer diagonal knockback in addition to vertical, so the player can't combo them mid-air with melee attacks. Would be super cool to hit them out of the sky with a well-placed bow-shot!

Medic - My biggest issue with support-themed affixes, and why none currently exist, is that it relies heavily on other mobs being spawned with the mob.

My simple solution to this? Make Medic the "evolution" of Lively. It retains its self-healing in ADDITION to its support capabilities!

In fact, I'll add to this: Maybe it even heals other mobs a little better than it can heal itself, making it a priority target in group-fights and forcing you to strategise - "How do I reach the Champion without getting shreded by his army?" Same goes for Resistor! The Resistor himself is weaker than his friends, and makes for the natural priority. What do you think of this idea?

Division - Other people have suggested something similar in the past, it's interesting but I'm worried about the idea of duplicating an entity and having a bunch of affixes stacked against you could be too strong.

This is absolutely fair, I didn't even consider how it'd stack with other Affixes... That could be busted HAHA
Maybe it could uniquely only be applied to level 2 or lower Champions? And perhaps only divide the mob a single time. With the health split between two mobs, I don't think that'd be too problematic...?
Again though, this was certainly the goofiest suggestion of the bunch and I didn't actually expect to hear you'd considered it before HAHA
I think it'd be cool if you demo'd it, perhaps!

Negative Affixes
This is a very interesting idea that I never considered. It'd really open up the design space for new affixes when they're not always positive.

Really glad you like this idea! I think it could add some really interesting dynamics to combat. Here's another couple ideas I thought of!

Flammable

Any fire damage inflicted on the target will make it explode into flames, burning it twice as quickly as it otherwise would. Rewards strategic enchantment and item use!

Scarecrow

Mobs take extra damage from thrown Tridents.

Achilies

Mobs take far more damage against arrows. (Perhaps if only hit by their eyeline...?) (If not a damage modifier, maybe they could inflict slowness and/or weakness against them?)

Arthritic

Mobs suffer twice as much fall damage. Make use of knockback enchantments and high terrain!

Tameable Mobs
A lot of Champions is coded with the assumption that certain behaviors from hostile mobs exist on the entity so something like this is feasible but would require a big overhaul for Champions.

If your concern is that it'd just look a little goofy for entities that can't make use of their offensive-based Affixes, then I wouldn't worry about that too much. I could even see it being a novelty!

Is it possible for you to add exceptions for mobs such as wolves and horses, or are you restricted in having to add entire mob categories at a time?

An entire breeding system is also feasible but could take a while to get right and code everything.

Oh, I didn't mean a breeding SYSTEM, dude! Just that if you breed enough animals, eventually one would have to spawn that has a Champion Affix. It would incentivise doing so!

Small Sound and Visual Cues
Fair points, I'll see what I can do in this regard.

Keep me updated, please! Also, contact LudoCrypt regarding sound, I'm sure she'd love to help! :D (Maybe she could even make a music disc for the mod, if that interests you)

Extra experience points are currently tied to the growth factor value, but making this its own field could be a good idea.

Thank you! I think it'd be cool to have.

from champions.

With more than six, you could potentially have them cycle through the next icons, or you could just not display further Affixes at all. There has to be SOME point at which people are just going to go past a point that the mod was never designed around, right?

This is true enough, compromises have to be made at some point since the mod theoretically allows an unlimited number of affixes. I probably prefer cycling over cutting off at a certain number, but I don't know, I'll have to think on that.

I think a visual effect, like the mob itself emitting smoke momentarily before you get hit with it, paired along with a sound cue, and bringing down the cloud radius to about 3 blocks would make it perfect.

Some visual effects sounds like a good idea, if I don't decide to change it to a projectile.

Two thoughts: It could either remain immovable but suffer worse knockback when vulnerable, or it could be knock-backable when invulnerable, but only by half as much (or so.)

Yeah, I was considering a weaker knockback. But this is something I'll just have to workshop to see what feels best.

Straightforward enough to dodge on its own, but in group fights it can be a little hectic, and you do have to aim fairly well to stop the projectiles I feel.

That's fair, admittedly I test mostly in 1v1 combat scenarios so I should factor in group fights more often.

I frankly think it'd solve all it's problems. Right now I think it breaks your design principle of not "introducing unfair mechanics that cannot be countered effectively in some manner." I know you could theoretically use splash potions, but that is a SUPREMELY niche way of balancing it, so much so that I don't think it means much at all. If the window of opportunity is there, then it makes it a super interesting parallel to Shielding, I think, and could be really FUN to fight as opposed to frustrating.

Theoretically at least, the idea is that Reflective is meant to counter players trying to simply use high damage attacks to destroy enemies in a single hit, negating any tactics involved in fighting them. Thus the counter to that is to use weaker attacks in a manner that allows you yourself to survive/heal enough to win the encounter. But of course there is a point where the required tactics become more frustrating than compelling, so I'll look into ways where this is a little less polarizing.

What if it blinded you, but highlighted the attacker and any entities that extend from it, like arrows? That way, you could still gun for them, but would have less visual information on the surrounding terrain.

An interesting idea, I'll consider it.

My simple solution to this? Make Medic the "evolution" of Lively. It retains its self-healing in ADDITION to its support capabilities!

Hmm, possibly. I'd have to make it sufficiently different than Lively, but the idea of making support skills that can also function on their own is sound.

If your concern is that it'd just look a little goofy for entities that can't make use of their offensive-based Affixes, then I wouldn't worry about that too much. I could even see it being a novelty!

There is that, but also:

Is it possible for you to add exceptions for mobs such as wolves and horses, or are you restricted in having to add entire mob categories at a time?

It's more so that the code is written in such a way that relies on the assumption that it's always a hostile mob, if I release that restriction then I have to go over everything again and see what needs to be updated to accommodate this change. It's not super difficult, but somewhat tedious. Not a dealbreaker though by any means.

Oh, I didn't mean a breeding SYSTEM, dude! Just that if you breed enough animals, eventually one would have to spawn that has a Champion Affix. It would incentivise doing so!

Oh, I see. I certainly thought you meant something like breeding a Plagued Wolf and Hasty Wolf has a certain chance of spawning one with one or both affixes. Which admittedly is a cool idea, even if that's not what you intended. Might be overkill though, but it's food for thought at least.

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