Input surface T and dewpoint through popup menu and Theta E sampling about sharppy HOT 8 CLOSED

Hi msuwx1,

As for your first question regarding the input surface temperature and dew point, we are currently undertaking a rewrite of some of the functions within the skew.py program, and adding this is a previous idea we might be able to begin to implement. I think Rich Thompson mentioned this function over email to me the other day, and we are interested in the superadiabatic technique you have at your office (what office, BTW?). Could you give us more information on your technique?

Hmm. For your second question, are you looking to be able to move up your mouse along the Theta-E profile and actually get the value at these points? We also have the ability for you to interact with the data using Python, outside of the GUI and through the command line. Perhaps, the ability to open up a Python prompt that would allow you to contains the data you've selected would be a great GUI function.

from sharppy.

I'm here at NWS Jackson, MS and our SOO is in contact with Rich over the function of modifying the soundings through a GUI prompt but we hadn't heard the exact process on how to do so. Ok that sounds great! If somehow you or Rich do have a way to add it in, that would be awesome! We have an updated microburst checklist and composite parameter (our SOO aided in the implementation of this on the SPC page) and SharpPy seems legitimate program to use potentially over AWIPS 2, possibly. We would also like to add the microburst parameter (with some of our local modifications) into the sounding program so it calculates the parameter based on our forecast temp/dewpoint input and modified sounding but that may be something Rich or we have to look into. Rich mentioned to our SOO that they already have the microburst composite code already calculated and if that can be added in, that would be awesome. Even if its just like the Supercell or SHIP parameter (in brown), that would be great.

Ok our thoughts on superadiabatic technique are as follows (per our SOO):

-When the temperature is expected to be between 93-95 degrees, we type in 1 degree lower and drag the sounding surface temp up to the forecasted high temperature.
-When the temperature is expected to be greater than 95 degrees, we type in 2 degrees lower and drag the sounding surface temp up to the forecasted high temperature.
This helps the 850mb temp from getting too excessive when the temperatures are in the mid 90s or so

Now the depth of the superadiabatic lapse rate I'm not exactly sure how deep that should be. Probably depends on the surface temperature and is likely deeper on warmer days, would assume. Probably a few hundred feet.

I would be looking at moving the mouse up and down along the Theta profile and sampling the values. All we need for our microburst checklist is the surface Theta-E and the min theta E aloft (below 500mb). Those two values and Theta E differential are important players in strong downburst formation and microburst potential. Even a popup menu that calculates those parameters at the surface and min theta E aloft and along the sounding would be great. It is whatever is feasible sounds great to us here in Jackson.

If somehow you work on an update to SharpPy and have these things implemented or we need to do some implementation our side, I'm willing to listen. So if you get any updates to it, we would really appreciate it! Hate this was a long winded response but its definitely a very critical piece of forecasting information and this tool will aid in it even more.

Thanks!

David

from sharppy.

Hi David,

Don't worry about long winded responses. I think sometimes those are under appreciated these days, and I want to let you know that I appreciate you going into as much detail as you did. It's very useful to us.

We've received Microburst Composite code from Rich, and we've mostly implemented, it but we need to add in the ThetaE differential function to correct it. We've been testing these functions through him, so once I get that differential function up and running, I can send him a few test soundings and we can compare to make sure everything is correct.

I think I understand your superadiabatic technique. Essentially it starts of with a sounding modification in which the forecasted surface temperature would be subtracted by a certain amount (1 or 2 degrees F) based on the forecasted surface temperature. Then that potential surface temperature would also be the theta value for a mixed layer that extends upwards along the dry adiabat until it reaches the original thermodynamic profile. Finally, the surface temperature point would be modified to the original high temperature value to obtain the superadiabatic layer. Something like this might not be too hard to automate, and let me know if I've got the steps correct. I have a few more questions about this technique too. My first question is where will the forecasted high temperature value come from? SHARPpy calculates this using a routine from the SPC SHARP, so we could use that information here. Am I following your thinking correctly here? Second, how applicable is this technique to other locations? Is it unique to the Jackson area?

Hmm. Allowing theta-E values to be output as you move the mouse around won't be hard too, but it's a question of placement of these functions.

I'm happy to work with you on this, and I'm looking forward to talking you more about how we can get this into the program.

Greg

from sharppy.

The forecasted temperature is what our current office is forecasting the high temperature will be for the day and sometimes we apply that forecast high temperature/ mixed out sfc dewpoint from our office with our sounding site at the office or sometimes even use that temperature with a surrounding site if it will be in, for example, mainly in the eastern portions of the area and we want to modify the sounding from Birmingham to get an idea of conditions to our east or use Little Rock to get an idea of conditions to our north. Sometimes I've used the other office's forecast high temp/mixed afternoon sfc dewpoint to modify it. Based on the microburst composite parameter value, we have seen a good and statistical relation to certain values and how many storm events (hail/wind, etc.) we can typically expect for the day if all the parameters are in play correctly

I think you have the superadiabatic process exactly outlined how we want it.

I don't think its completely unique to the Jackson area just something we have developed or found through research locally. However, I definitely think this could be a process useful for more of the CONUS to use you just might want to ask Rich about it. I definitely want this something useful not only for our office but offices nationwide around the CONUS so hopefully this would be procedure useful to all or most offices around the country.

My main thing about Theta E is we just need the Theta E at the sfc, min theta E aloft (below 500mb) and the difference between those two temperatures (all in Kelvin). So that is why to have the output as we move up and down or just to have an inset of those values and the differential would be fine too.

Thank you so much for all of your help and descriptions on how this would be implemented. Any questions or information you need from us on implementing is welcome and I really appreciate the interest in getting this implemented!

Thanks again
David

from sharppy.

Our SOO and I discussed this after he saw your previous response this morning and he said that it would be nice to have an option for a clickable +1 or +2 superadibatic lapse rate, obviously only when the temperatures reach 93 degrees (+1) and >95 degrees (+2). I think your coding is correct on the idea of mixing the sfc potential temp along the dry adiabats up to the original sounding then adjusting the surface temperature upward. But it would be nice to have an option to click to get it to do that when the forecast temperature from our office is going to be those thresholds. For example, we usually would type in the value -1 or -2 degrees our forecast then manually drag up +1 or +2 degrees. Possibly having that option to just put in 1-2 degrees lower then to click a button to create that superadiabatic lapse rate would be good for us, just to ensure it's completed how we want it and what we have been used to, if possible.

If you have the Microburst composite code from Rich, our SOO said it should be the updated parameters that we found from local research at our office that a large group of us completed together last summer. He said he has our updated parameters included in their local NSharp at SPC and it is already calculating it automatically and giving a Microburst composite value just like the STP, SCP, etc.

Like I mentioned the only values we need for Theta E is the sfc, min aloft (below 500mb) and the difference between the two. I think the Sfc theta E and the Theta E difference are actually used in the calculation of the Microburst composite. Typically, >=355K at the sfc and 35+ difference between the sfc and min aloft will make it more likely for a microburst or severe weather in our region. I guess if the calculation of the Microburst composite pulls the values automatically, we don't have to see the output values but it would be nice to see these values of the sfc Theta E/ min aloft in a box and the option of sampling it as you go up and down, just for forecasting purposes.

Last personal preference, is there anyway there could be an option to sample the temperatures (temp/dewpoint) and height in Farenheit and feet? Maybe a button to change over from Celsius and meters to Farenheit and feet. Just a preference and nothing real big but just an idea.

I know these are quite a few requests and hope to not put too many out there while you are in the rewrite mode of the code.

Thanks again!

David

from sharppy.

Hi David,

So regarding the microburst and sounding modification tools...I've been busy with PECAN stuff recently, so I'm just now getting back to this.

Our next major release of SHARPpy will include a corrected MBURST parameter. As I think I mentioned before, Rich sent us the code from his copy of SHARP for this. I've done some comparisons with it to the SPC Mesoanalysis, and I think it's correct.

As for the actual sounding modification routines and Theta-E readout, here are some of our current thoughts:

1.) It might be prudent to make a swappable Microburst/Wind Damage inset (one of the bottom right two insets) in order to view different wind damage or microburst parameters for guidance.

2.) Your idea of being able to sample the Theta-E with height is a good one, and we're not entirely certain how to implement this just yet. We don't have a lot of space with the readout cursor, so we might have to shuffle some things around.

3.) The sounding modification routines present an opportunity for us to try to implement some type of macros/procedures that people could add in case they wanted to have some custom routines to modify the sounding (like the superadiabatic technique you mention). This might take a little while to come up with the mechanics of how this would work. The next release will allow you to interpolate the profile to 25 mb, which should help the whole dragging and modifying soundings step. Our goal is that when we make a big change, we try to make it customizable the best way we can. We spent a little bit of time today brainstorming how to do this, and we have some ideas. I think we're going to try to see if we can do something with the release following this next one relating to this.

4.) The units changing is something we've gotten a few comments about. Options to change this will probably be coming in the release following this next one as we've been noting the need for a settings panel.

We might need to have a phone call at some point to see if we've got all of what you're requesting, but that will probably need to happen next month.

Best,

Greg

from sharppy.

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the reply. The PECAN project seems really interesting. I look forward to any new information you find out about it.

Ok great! That's awesome that you were able to include the MBURST parameter in the new program.

That sounds fine to me that you would make an inset for the Microburst/Wind Damage. I think that is definitely a good idea as it would stand out more rather than just a small form of text where the STP is located on the GUI. We could also add some box and whiskers of the data and MBURST parameter plotted on that if possible. We can send you the box and whiskers that has the MB composite plotted with each event category, such as how many events it occurs with.

The Theta E sampling isn't as prudent I guess as calculating the actual sfc Theta E and the Theta E min aloft (below 500mb) and calculating the difference. If we can get that raw data calculated for the Theta E differential, that would be great to see in that inset (Sfc Theta E, Theta E aloft and differential) as closer to 30+ heightens the MBURST parameter and is a decent indicator of wind damage potential. I know you are calculating it somehow because the MBURST parameter includes sampling those values at the sfc and aloft and then calculating the difference, which goes into the MBURST calculation.

Ok sounds great on the sounding modification procedure but that is something we would like to see as we do that every day using A2 and it would be great to have it useful to use in a much simpler form in SharpPy.

Thanks for the updates on the units. Just a recommendation.

My SOO and I are both available this upcoming week, if you are. Anytime between 2-4pm is good if next week is ok. Just send me a personal message on here, if that is possible or shoot me your email address and I'll send you an email with contact information. I will possibly be available Wednesday and Friday. Maybe Thursday also. Just let me know.

Thanks,

David

from sharppy.

Closing this issue. I've added in the capability to modify the surface temperature and dew point in skew.py (allowing for mixing upwards if the user should wish) along with the ability to readout the Theta-E using the readout cursor. These changes are in Commit 595861a.

from sharppy.