How Can We Teach Dense, Technical Material To A Wide Range of Students? about project-ideas HOT 1 OPEN

Conversation from isis/#security:

01:17:41 < OrderZero> How Can We Teach Dense, Technical Material To A Wide Range of Students?
01:17:47 @wont oh yes
01:17:54 @wont I was about to pose the question
01:18:03 @wont Right now that is more important than all the other cruft
01:18:09 < OrderZero> "special" courses
01:18:17 @wont Is that code for beatings?
01:18:44 < ColdHeat> lol
01:19:36 < ColdHeat> Well I think Hack Night draws a large amount more of those who need hand holding than people who just need to hear it
01:19:57 @wont I can only do so much hand holding
01:20:11 < ColdHeat> I think people the latter need to be identified early and moved into ISIS in general
01:20:50 < ColdHeat> and give hand holding Hack Nights to try to boost those who need help to get to a better techinical position
01:21:24 <~HockeyInJune> It's difficult to generalize the groups like that and except everything will be okay, if we seperate everyone into two groups.
01:21:28 @wont I want to give people the facilities to hold their own hands
01:21:49 @wont There is nothing I can't do for a person that person can't do for themself
01:21:55 <~HockeyInJune> Even with the people who need hand-holding, there are students who need more hands on activities, there are students who need to hear concepts repeated over and over again
01:22:15 <~HockeyInJune> And there are students who need it to be explained in terms they can relate to.
01:22:27 <~HockeyInJune> We need a way to personallize the material
01:22:39 <~HockeyInJune> Get feedback, and work with students in a way that helps them to learn
01:22:45 <~HockeyInJune> But, how can we do all of this?
01:22:55 <~HockeyInJune> Of course.
01:23:11 <~HockeyInJune> We could take wont's perspective, if you aren't a self-starter, you just aren't going to learn it.
01:23:28 <~HockeyInJune> Or, if you aren't a self-starter, you have to start with the Poly courses, and work from there.
01:23:31 < ColdHeat> Well then I mean aren't we running into the same problem that public schools have and haven't solved? Be more involved with individual students, but have to generalize enough
for the entire class
01:23:36 <~HockeyInJune> But, I feel that's too exclusive.
01:23:53 <~HockeyInJune> ColdHeat: Yes, I think it's a very generic problem.
01:25:10 < ColdHeat> If we just appeal to self starters I think you'll drop HN attendance sharply
01:25:18 @wont Yeah
01:25:18 <~HockeyInJune> But, we need more than the conventional solution, because our material is denser and more technical than the shit they teach to idiots in public school.
01:25:21 @wont by %100
01:25:24 < ColdHeat> Lol
01:25:25 < ColdHeat> truth
01:25:37 @wont HockeyInJune: yes
01:25:39 < ancat> you need to use more clip art
01:25:44 < ancat> and power points
01:25:45 @wont I've been thinking about what you said
01:25:57 @wont How can we equip students to learn technicaly dense material
01:26:02 @wont it's not a skill that gets taught
01:26:35 <~HockeyInJune> Right, not only do we need to teach them technical material, we need to teach them how to learn technical material.
01:26:41 <~HockeyInJune> And frankly, I don't know how to teach that.
01:27:14 <~HockeyInJune> I've been thinking about it for a pretty long time. There are a couple simple things we can do, like teach people how to use references and resources.
01:27:27 < OrderZero> Google 101
01:27:28 <~HockeyInJune> Teach people how to keep organized notes, and lists of resources.
01:27:32 <~HockeyInJune> OrderZero: yeah lol
01:27:40 < ColdHeat> Googling is hard
01:27:42 <~HockeyInJune> But that's not enough!
01:27:44 < ColdHeat> gotta type it all out and shit
01:27:54 <~HockeyInJune> There's this deeper element, that I can't quite figure out.
01:27:57 < OrderZero> ColdHeat, Not true!
01:28:00 < ColdHeat> Lol
01:28:03 < OrderZero> You can click the microphone icon and say it!
01:28:07 < ColdHeat> :O
01:28:08 <~HockeyInJune> lol
01:28:09 < ColdHeat> YOU CAN!
01:28:20 < ColdHeat> And now Google is selling that aren't they?
01:28:29 < ColdHeat> They super charged it or something at I/O
01:28:39 < OrderZero> didn't attend unfortunately
01:28:55 < ColdHeat> I was half heartedly paying attention to the stream but back to the issue at hand
01:28:57 < OrderZero> HockeyInJune, to put it simply, everyone learns differently
01:29:10 <~HockeyInJune> Does anyone mind if I record this conversation on github?
01:29:18 < OrderZero> and that's not all once they do learn it it's retaining it that's the issue
01:29:24 < ColdHeat> I don't mind
01:29:34 @wont go for it
01:29:39 < OrderZero> I'm on the internet I presume everything's recorded anyway
01:29:51 < ColdHeat> I think the issue is that HN students come in with very little technical background
01:30:07 @wont But we start from the begining
01:30:15 @wont We start from "Here is a document to read"
01:30:18 @wont it's in english
01:30:32 @wont it's short, it uses only a little amount of technical jargonm
01:30:42 <~HockeyInJune> OrderZero: I don't think retainment is an issue. Because if people would just understand it the first time, they'd be able to go back to the lectures at any time for a
refresher.
01:30:44 <~HockeyInJune> Everything's online.
01:31:06 @wont Hacknight is over for this semester
01:31:14 @wont Should we send out a questionare?
01:31:19 < ancat> are you sure they are even interested? I mean if you look at the hack nights in the past, just look at how many of them actually participated
01:31:25 < OrderZero> Sure but say they understand it the first time (or think they do) and then a week down the line they've completely forgotten
01:31:30 <~HockeyInJune> wont: That's a good idea.
01:31:32 < ColdHeat> Some are there for pizza
01:31:33 < OrderZero> it may seem farfetched but a lot of people have that issue
01:31:34 < ancat> how many came prepared, how many answered questions wont asked
01:31:35 < ColdHeat> that's obvioius
01:31:42 < ancat> etc
01:32:01 @wont ancat: Sure, the questions are hard.
01:32:09 @wont In university it's much easier to be quiet
01:32:09 <~HockeyInJune> OrderZero: I think we're not even at the point where people are saying they understand it the first time.
01:32:20 < ancat> oh no, that's not the problem, the problem is that it doesn't look like they try or care to try
01:32:21 @wont Part of poly culture is to be quiet, not to show off
01:32:24 < rattis> ISIS?
01:32:28 @wont even if you're prettu sure you have the answer
01:32:33 < ColdHeat> Lol I'm not so sure about that wont
01:32:43 < rattis> I was told this was a security chanel, that they wanted to make the new center of the security world. :)
01:32:43 @wont ColdHeat: Are you srs?
01:32:47 < ColdHeat> I see a lot of people showing off just really without the right to
01:32:50 @wont ColdHeat: how many questions have you answered in math?
01:32:59 < ColdHeat> I don't even try in math
01:33:04 < ColdHeat> I gave up a long time ago
01:33:05 @wont boom.
01:33:15 @wont When was the last time you proposed an idea to your lit teacher?
01:33:31 < ColdHeat> When i did my final presentation
01:33:42 < ColdHeat> I told her she needs a web app for her stupid excel spreadsheet
01:33:43 @wont That was manditory?
01:33:51 < ColdHeat> the idea or the presentation?
01:33:55 < ColdHeat> the idea wasn't mandatory
01:33:58 @wont the presentation
01:34:03 < ColdHeat> the presentation was mandatory
01:34:06 < ColdHeat> the idea came after
01:34:10 @wont You spoke up when it was demanded of you
01:34:14 < ColdHeat> No
01:34:20 < ColdHeat> She asked the class for a general review of her excel sheet
01:34:27 < ColdHeat> I said yeah you need a web app
01:34:31 @wont Are we still talking about literature?
01:34:39 < ColdHeat> I think so
01:34:43 < ColdHeat> I have two HuSS classes
01:34:49 < ColdHeat> How to Win a Nobel Prize
01:34:57 < ColdHeat> and Methods for Studying Urban Environments
01:35:08 @wont Alright, I think I'm not being clear.
01:35:15 < ColdHeat> In Web Studio I school my professor left and right
01:35:39 @wont Sure, web is your domain. I spoke up in calc and CS all the time
01:35:42 < OrderZero> HockeyInJune: Ah well that's a different fight entirely
01:36:02 @wont When you're unsure of the domain your in, how often do you speak up?
01:36:13 @wont Thats the problem at HN
01:36:25 < ColdHeat> That's a problem in general
01:36:36 < OrderZero> I don't speak up often about things I don't fully understand.
01:36:44 <~HockeyInJune> I do.
01:36:45 < ColdHeat> How do you generate interest when someone is uninterested
01:36:51 < OrderZero> hold on where's that quote (goes digging)
01:36:58 <~HockeyInJune> I ask questions, until I completely understand what we're talking about.
01:36:59 @wont That is when it's most important to speak your mind
01:37:23 < OrderZero> “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.” - Mark Twain
01:37:23 < ColdHeat> When you're not interested?
01:37:27 <~HockeyInJune> I try to explain my current understanding of the problem area, in order to be corrected by an expert.
01:37:37 <~HockeyInJune> Only when I'm interested.
01:37:39 < ColdHeat> lol
01:37:52 @wont When you're unsure of of the material you're presented with
01:38:10 < ColdHeat> I mean I don't think in HN more than 5% have the technical background to be interested past the 5 mins of the 1st HN
01:38:30 < ColdHeat> Like whoa you can type commands and they do stuf???
01:38:36 < ColdHeat> I think that's where most people that come to HN are
01:39:46 @wont OK, so?
01:41:14 < ColdHeat> I realize it's an unpopular opinion and it's probably not going to be even looked and that's fine but I think HN needs a lower bar for entry
01:41:40 < ColdHeat> and those who are past that bar already need to be taken into ISIS where they get the for serious stuff
01:41:45 <~HockeyInJune> ColdHeat: What material do you suggest we teach?
01:43:07 <~HockeyInJune> ColdHeat: Over the summer, we're going to teach High School kids this stuff, and it's my opinion that they'll be fine with it. The problem isn't the entry bar, it's
something else.. interest, learning, content
01:43:40 < OrderZero> interest is definitely a huge factor, no one wants to learn about something they're not interested in
01:43:51 < ColdHeat> Some of the topics from network security, web hacking, and at the end like a basic buffer overflow
01:44:09 < ColdHeat> I think the low interest is b/c of the high bar
01:44:20 < OrderZero> once they realize "hacking their friends facebook" isn't like it is in the movies they soon lose interest I'm sure.
01:44:26 < ColdHeat> B/C we have high attendance when first HN rolls around
01:44:35 < ColdHeat> but then it tapers off, I believe, b/c they get intimidated
01:44:54 < ColdHeat> they think well Im not at this level, let's go back home and play LoL til something easier comes around
01:45:38 < ColdHeat> Lol that's true OrderZero
01:46:15 <~HockeyInJune> If that's their attitude, the perhaps they aren't interested after all.
01:46:53 < ColdHeat> There's a difference between being not interested and not willing to struggle through something
01:47:13 <~HockeyInJune> Because there will come a time when it's going to get hard, and then they will arrive at this realization and quit then. Then the lab has wasted dozens of manhours on them.
01:47:20 < ColdHeat> They should ask questions to prevent struggling but then there's always that stigma about asking questions
01:47:28 <~HockeyInJune> Struggle?! No one fucking tries, ColdHeat.
01:47:40 < ColdHeat> Which is why is say it needs to be spoonfed
01:48:13 <~HockeyInJune> wont: ColdHeat's argument makes me want to say fuck everyone who doesn't care, we teach to a higher caliber of student.
01:48:50 < ColdHeat> Where are you going to find those?
01:49:03 <~HockeyInJune> We have 20 of them
01:49:05 <~HockeyInJune> More will come.
01:49:25 <~HockeyInJune> Also remember, Hack Night is designed to bring people into the CTF team.
01:49:37 <~HockeyInJune> Perhaps we need a primer for people before they start Hack Night
01:49:52 <~HockeyInJune> A list of self-study material to know before they come to their first Hack NIght
01:50:04 <~HockeyInJune> Like the stuff we're going to use for the High school kids.
01:50:20 < ColdHeat> I think that's a good approach
01:50:40 < OrderZero> I agree.

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