ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 / ITIL about management-system HOT 42 CLOSED

Hello max3903, I'd like to help on developing this functionality. I'm familiar with Odoo development and the new API, however I'm not very experienced.
Do you already have a data model planned or do you have a copy of the ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 I can access ?

from management-system.

Hello @wagnerpereirasp,

The standard can be bought on the ISO website: http://iso.org and once bought, it cannot be shared.

I don't have it myself and there is no data model planned yet.

Do you have an idea of what features are missing in Odoo to support the SMS activities?
I am guessing:

• we need to determine the structure of the documentation: document pages or a specific object
• we need to integrate any new model with existing one like nonconformity and actions

from management-system.

I saw its price and its above my current financial capability right now. I'll try to get it and will let you know once I do. Thanks.

from management-system.

About the data module I wish I had the ISO definition to help me review what misses, we need to use as much current models Odoo already have so we'll need a way to turn the either product or asset model into a service CMDB, I think asset is the best qualified to do so, however we should have a way to relate depending services by using parent and child services.

The issues model should be used for Incident Management, but we need a way to identify working teams for issues, different departments responsible to resolve incidents depending on the service affected, I thought on using a Project per each Department, and we need a method to reroute issues to different departments.

The task model might be a suitable fit to do the change management, however a change record might have several tasks so I'm thinking we might use the project model instead.

The problem management might also be covered on the project model, as it also have several tasks.

This is only the basics, we still need to cover the Request Management which I think we can use the product model and the virtual store for users to request services (like new ID creation, delete, computer maintenance, etc.).

What do you think about this idea ?

from management-system.

@wagnerpereirasp I listed the requirements and various options we have for each.

At a higher level, we need to make a choice between:

1. Having predefined projects created by our modules: Incidents, Problems, Requests, Configuration, Changes.
   • When a new customer purchase a service, there is no new project created. We use the 5 predefined ones.
   • Everything is a task and his tasks are spread among those 5 projects
   • Reporting on team load is easier (1 team = 1 project)
   • Reporting on customer is more difficult (customer tasks are spread among the 5 projects)
2. Having type on tasks (Configuration, Change, Problem) and issues (Incident, Request).
   • When a new customer purchase a service, we create a new project for the customer.
   • All his tasks and issues are gathered in his project
   • It is easier to track the profitability of the contract
   • It is more difficult to report on the project as the data is separated between 2 models (task and issue)
   • It is more difficult to track each team load
3. Having type on tasks (Configuration, Change, Problem, Incident, Request).
   • When a new customer purchase a service, we create a new project for the customer.
   • All his tasks are gathered in his project
   • It is easier to track the customer activity (only one model) and profitability of the contract
   • It is more difficult to track each team load

from management-system.

@max3903 some of the features can maybe be copied from the business requirement repo (task category for example).
Approaches are similar (requirement/project/tasks) and you might want to check synergies between the 2 set of modules

from management-system.

@max3903, what if we use approach #3 with a slightly change to allow team load, we can create a support team model that could have assigned personal and be related to the task, this way we can create buttons for task team reassignment.

This would make easy to track each team load by using filters and time tracking on tasks, we just need to make sure these task/projects are not confused with the standard Odoo project management using domain filters.

from management-system.

@wagnerpereirasp let's start with option 3 and use the category field of the business requirement project.

from management-system.

We are currently conducting projects similar to this scheme (#2). We use issues as customer contact point (incident management) and convert them to tasks as necessary (change, configuration, etc.). We prefer issues to crm claim to keep everything together within the project module.

from management-system.

@levkar Thanks for your feedbacks. Is it a really problem to have 2 models (tasks and issues) for reporting purposes?

from management-system.

I advise for option 2.
Although sometimes it seems that we are duplicating things by using two different Models (Issues and Tasks), I have found useful to be able to decide for each Project to use only Issues, only Tasks, or both.

I started with the Issues + Tasks logic that @wagnerpereirasp describes, but found it could be confusing for end users, and later changed it to a simpler Tasks only approach. But I still believe that there are cases where a Issues + Tasks can be the good approach.

At the end of the day, we want to keep our options open so that we can pick the best solution for the particular use case at hand.

Regarding synergies with Business Requirements, IMO sharing a couple of similar code tables is not enough to justify the additional dependency.

I confess I'm not totally familiar with the ITIL vocabulary, but this is an interesting topic for me. I would love to see @max3903 initial requirement bullet points expanded. Maybe a Google Doc is easier for collaboration and commenting/discussing on particular parts of the text?

from management-system.

@dreispt Will do my best to provide by the end of the week.

from management-system.

@dreispt Done!

from management-system.

Hi everyone,

I'm a newbie in regard to Odoo, but I'm a certified ISO 20000 Implementer and this subject is familiar to me. I have some experience with IBM Service Desk ( Maximo) and how it implements ITSM/ITIL in regard to workflows and processes. I also have a lot of (un)official documentation on this subject.

My question is - do you need still some help with this subject?

Honestly, I'm still trying to get a overview how your modul is structured and please apologize if I don't "get it" here and then ;)

Before I continue, I would like to assure you that it is not my intention to underrate all your work and efforts and all my comments and remarks should be understood as brainfood to the subject ;)

From my experience the best way to easily implement ISO 9001/20000/27000 is to start with a "SERVICE DESK" - a central node from where you "push" every EVENT (mail, e-mail, phone call, software trigger etc.) into the right direction. This is the point where you automated or manually decide if you have a INCIDENT, PROBLEM, REQUEST FOR CHANGE etc.
As soon you know what you are dealing with - you follow a well defined and documented procedure/workflow guided by the SERVICE DESK. with proper documentation as a result.

You can imagine yourself a Service Desk as a Help Desk module extended with workflow execution capability. A very important part is the capability for defining escalation rules and procedures.

ISO 20000 will very likely evolve from a IT service management standard to a general purpose service management standard very soon and that's why I think that the proper implementation within Odoo is very important. A CMDB could/should be the central point of ALL material and non-material Assets within Odoo.

I do have some coding experience, but at this moment I think I could be more valuable by giving my insights in regard how it looks like in real life scenarios... but I'm sure in time and with your help I'll get my hands also dirty ;)
All Help and suggestions are very appreciated :)

In my opinion ISO 9001:2015/20000/13485:2016 are very alike and they could share at least 80% of workflows and procedures.

Best regards,

Dino

from management-system.

Welcome @DinoJuric, I would love to help bring your idea forward. I've been playing with Service Management topics in the last years, and I'm sure we could build a solid solution with Odoo.

The standard Prokect and Issues apps already provide the basic elements.
The https://github.com/OCA/project provides additional building blocks for a Service Management solution. Have a look at these presentations:

• http://www.slideshare.net/dreispt/service-management-with-odooopenerpopendays2014danielreis
• http://www.slideshare.net/dreispt/service-management-at-securitas-using-openeerp

As you can see, some work has been done, but I believe that there is a lot more to do.
And we can start from the functional design.
My suggestion is for you to start by writing down a scope, or even better, a roadmap, and define top level requirements. Based on that, we could then design the Odoo implementation and detail what would need to be developed.

from management-system.

Thank you @dreispt for your Welcome Message and suggestions.

I'll dive right into the material you provided.
But I can already see that I need a little time to understand the Philosophy behind the Project module.

I'm aware that there is some kind of workflow engine available within Odoo,
Could someone point me the right direction where I can find more technical information?

I agree that I should write down a scope as always when you are dealing with the implementation of standards, but I have to say upfront that I personally have a more holistic approach to the subject.
When dealing with implementing ISO standards, there is a realistic danger to easily forget that implementing the standard isn't the ultimate goal - it's to make the way you are doing your core business better - not more complicated.
So, when someone is integrating quality management into a software solution, it would be ideal if it's a integral part of the framework and not a separate module.
I like Odoo because it's not to complicated to run for small businesses and it would be great if we could offer a solution that would include basic ISO9001 requirements, FitSM as a entry level SMS that covers probably the need of 95% of all businesses. Not everyone needs the final certification. But it should be a option within the settings if you need one.

At this moment I would like to keep all my other opinions back until I get a better overview and understanding of how Odoo in general works. Hopefully, it will not take to much time :)
I suppose that I'm to much biased by the way the IBM Tivoli suite is operating. In general there you have a very capable process automation engine that handles almost everything in the background, from simple cron jobs, definitons of roles, classifications and security up to workflow processing ( for SLAs, OLAs, Service Catalog definition etc.)
So, please take all that into account when judging my discussion. I have a huge respect for all the work that is already done and I can imagine what a journey it was to come up to this stage of development.

And just a last question. Is it Ok to keep on this discussion on this tread? or should we move this discussion to another place? And is there a place we could exchange relevant documentation to this subject?

Kind regards

Dino

from management-system.

Ups, I forgot something :)

I want to explain why I mentioned FitSM as a first "Milestone" towards a ISO 20000 certification.
It's compatible to ITIL and ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 and the following two documents can help clarify a lot.

FitSM_Guide_Achieving_compliance_with_ISO_IEC_20000-1.pdf
FitSM_Guide_ITSM_documentation_checklist_1.0.pdf

Please study it. It is worth your time.

I do have also the official ISO documentation, but it is copyrighted and not intended for sharing. Sorry.
On the opposite, FitSM is a FREE standard and it generally covers ISO 20000 requirements so feel free to share it among colleagues.

kind regards,

Dino

from management-system.

Great! I think we can use this Issue for the discussion, and open new Issues for specific topics when we feel the need for that.

Regarding scope and requirements, maybe you could edit and expand Maxime's Google doc. See the link at the top.

Starting with a birds eye holistic view is a good thing.
When implementing we will split the features into smaller work units, implemented by a "module". Don't get fooled by that name - in the end everything will be integrated and work together nicely.

Regarding workflows, just point out what are the expected must have features.
Regarding this we should try to stick to the essentials. We don't want to be too opinionated and leave room for each organizations specific ways of doing things. That can be added on top of the modules, usually using custom Automated Actions.

At this point, what I miss most is a high level roadmap of the several areas that could be addressed, so that we can then choose the ones we want to dive in first.

from management-system.

Dino thanks for the introducing FitSM! I am also working on this issue and reorganizing our company to meet the standards. I will be following the discussion and contribute.

from management-system.

Hi everyone,

sorry for not replying right away, I had some other professional priorities that needed my full attention.

@levkar , you're welcome. I don't know how far you already got with your project, but I'm sure that FitSM can help you and your company. I hope you have stakeholders that are aware of the subject at least at the ITIL Foundation level.

@dreispt At this moment I consider myself looking at this subject with a view from the Space Station :)
From a great Height and passing 3 times a day :D

Few days ago I installed Odoo 9.0c and the management-system apps
I'm still trying to figure out the why and what's about the concept before I'm going to write anything down especially because of my "holistic" approach to the subject.
I'm very cautious about giving a premature opinion without having done my homework ;)

But, here are some thoughts just for the fun of brainstroming:
In general we are talking about quality management

• ISO 9001 - general purpose
• ISO 13485 - medical production
• ISO 20000 - IT Service Management
• ISO 22301 - Business Continuity
• ISO 27000 - IT security
• ISO 31000 - Risk Management

The most difficult of them to achieve is the ISO 20000.
It's ISO 9001 on Ecstasy ;)
ISO 13485 is similar to ISO 9001, Business Continuity and Risk Management in general covered with ISO 20000 ( more IT centric, but in general the rules can be applied to all areas of doing your business)
From what I hear from the Auditors I know, the main focus of ISO Committees is to make the standards as much as possible compatible within their structure. A lot of companies got their ISO 9001 back in the days and they would like to keep it, but they also would like to get, let's say ISO 13485...
To minimize the paperwork and amount of work to achieve the standard - ISO 9001 (the grandmother of quality management standards) was in 2015 "rewritten" to be in line with the other ...
And that is more or less what we will see within the near future - all ISO standards will cover the same subjects within the same clause - for example: in clause 5= leadership, clause 8= Operation etc.

If we could accomplish the same "effort" on software level... that we have a general "workflow engine" that would (based upon the requirements selected (simple and detailed setup option)) trigger remainders, generate reports and logs for evaluation by the management and the auditors etc. etc.

It should work 24/7 always checking if a condition is fulfilled that requires a (preferably) automated action.
For example, checking the Service Desk inbox for new mails and parsing it's subject title and the From: value
If the subject is NEW, it should generate a new ticket, start a general SLA protocol for answering the E-mail or solving the issue. If the E-mail comes from a specific important customer we have a contract with - it could trigger another SLA protocol.
Or,
the "engine" triggers randomly once a month a email with a calender entry and remainder - to the financial controller or someone else within the management responsible, to visit personally the IT department or Manager and to request a recover of a randomly selected file from a backup tape, let say from a specific day 2 month ago?
What ever the result of the request is, you are generating evidence of having the process under control.
Let's say if the recovery fails, (hopefully ;) ) a investigation will follow to eliminate the error that caused it.
AND the SOP will be corrected in order to avoid recurring mistakes.

Now let me return to my Space Station again ;)

ISO standards require a lot of obligated paperwork.
"If it's not written down, it never happened" - So, Auditors require evidence of all kind - logs, memos, meeting minutes, management reviews, action plans etc. etc.
How many Small and medium Businesses do you know with the manpower to cover all requirements in a consistent and disciplined manor? Well, very few of them, not because the lack of attitude but because of not having the resources.
In fact, there is often a misconception of the management what the greatest value of a particular certification is. Of course, a certification has a marketing value and it's a message to our customers...

BUT - The greatest value the management and the Employees are getting is THE UNDERSTANDING of HOW they are doing their Business and how everything is interconnected and interdependent !!!

Here I'm returning to my "Holistic" approach...
If we manage to produce a "core" that will support the PLAN, DO, CHECK, ACT approach
If we understand that EVERYTHING ( material and non-material) that can produce us some Value IS A ASSET and that it has to be listed within the CMDB with all the attributes it has.
If we understand that LOCATIONS, ASSETS, ROLES, CLASSIFICATIONS, ASSEMBLIES, CONTRACTS etc. etc. HAVE TO BE organized in an object oriented manor...

We could use the same core data of our company ERP ( machines, workplaces, employees, customers, spare parts etc.) within different viewing layers for our purposes of evaluating and documenting in order to achieve a certification or to better understand where our problems are (as a Business).

Sh*t,, I wrote a Book again :)
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

Let me shorten this message...

What if - there is a open source project potentially covering all our ISO processing needs and at this moment it seems that it could be adopted and misused for our needs?
In general it has a CMDB "engine" that integrates the Workflow process engine Enhydra Shark.
The core project is CMDBuild.org and it can be enhanced to our needs by defining the business processes we need and integrating it with Odoo via API or if we think it's possible to grab parts that we could reuse within our code? Let us discuss this...
There is also a project that is in general cmdbuild + business rules = Facility management openMaint.org and another one cmdbuild + business rules = IT Asset management Ready2Use

I'm in no way related to that project, I only find it interesting because of the potential to model it to the holistic approach I recommend. I have the feeling it could be well integrated with all the great work you guys already have done.
Any feedback is welcome ;)

CMDBuild is distributed under the AGPL licence.
Here is a link to the Brochure of this project. ->Brochure

Kind regards,

Dino

from management-system.

You can go two ways: create an integration with an existing project, such as CMDBuild, or implement the features directly on Odoo. If you are a CMDBuild export, the former can make sense. I personally prefer the later, unless there are some important feature that are hard to implement with Odoo.

Also, I've been editing and extending the Google doc linked at the top of this issue. I've been primarily using FitSM as a reference.

from management-system.

@dreispt Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the internals of Odoo and about CMDBuild even less in order to make a competent suggestion what would be the best solution on the technical side.

@ALL What I do know is - we need a system to handle Configuration Items and CMDBuild shows how it can be handled (as a possible reference).
How it can be used for our needs is a possible subject for discussion...
I think I jumped to early into the topic of suggesting possible technical solutions before proper clarifying what I would like to see from my point of View as a ISO Implementer.

The same way I introduced FitSM, I would also like to make you aware of PAS-99 2012 for integrated management systems
I hope it can clarify my Idea how Odoo should in general handle common requirements for all standards.
For sure much better than I did in my earlier posts ;)

I attached two excerpts from the original PAS-99 2012 document to show you how all ISO standards I mentioned in my earlier messages correlate to each other and they all have a lot in common...
The full document has 36 pages.
The original is copyrighted. So I'm not allowed to upload the full copy.
I hope they will not be angry at me. :)

The Introduction to PAS-99:2012
pas99-2012 introduction.pdf

ANNEX C - standard correlations
pas99-2012-extract.pdf

I've seen the changes that have been done within the document above and it's a great starting point.
I suppose we could maybe add FitSM as a supplement to the PAS-99 ANNEX C table the way Daniel correlated it in the document with the solutions provided in Odoo?

Kind Regards,
Dino

from management-system.

You mean we need a framework to handle any quality system before getting into details of ITIL, am i right?

from management-system.

In general, yes.

No one is forcing us to do that.
Neither is it an imperative, but on the long run...
IMHO it could be a Game Changer

But as anything else, we need a consensus about what are our priorities.
We don't have to dive in right away ;) Let the Idea mature until it makes sense to all of us
I hope you agree...

from management-system.

Here, the scope is mostly the operation part of ITIL. As you climb up the tree, scope becomes ITIL as a whole. If you climb even higher then it becomes all quality systems as a whole.

We were comparing local Quality Management solutions with Odoo Management System and we come to a conclusion that QM a big and deep vertical with lots of know-how. Unless we have a broader point of view (like yours), whatever solution we provide will be just a part of the whole picture.

I fully agree with you by the way.

from management-system.

@levkar You are absolutely correct. Once you start to climb up the tree it's hard to take account for all Branches you will reach. I've been there ;)

There was a time when ISO9001 was introduced, when you could get the certificate relatively easy - by limiting the scope and by keeping the extra paperwork low...

Today it's totally different.
Modern Auditors take their job very serious - and by default they want to see that you not only have done your homework by filling logs, forms, reports and whatever else is required by a particular standard...
They also want to see that your business is really embracing the benefits of using a quality management system.
And here is also an insight information for you...
There is NO WAY that you will ever finish a Audit without a Non-Conformity!
Because, today EVERY audit is Peer reviewed by other senior Auditors who are evaluating the work of the Auditor.
Even if you have a perfect management system in place, they WILL find and declare something as a Non-Conformity because an Auditor that doesn't do that, will not stay long doing this job.
Today, Auditors invest a lot of money into their career and they are not willing to loose everything because of a "soft attitude".

So here comes the bad news.
ISO 20000 as a IT service management standard is probably the most complex standard to achieve...
because of the huge amount of "You shall..." sentences within.
There are no shortcuts! Except you limit the scope of the Certification. But even then, you still have to fulfill ALL clauses as required and there is little room for subjective interpretation of the requirements.

Also, as much as I am a Fan of ITIL - in real life, it is very hard to implement because of several reasons.

First, the Implementer is probably the only person who fully understands the benefits of ITIL
I have very often seen that the Management layer of a company becomes the biggest opponent for the implementation because they are not willing to learn "the new trick", starting from the trivial prerequisite of understanding the vocabulary of ITIL, just to know what you are talking about at the meetings.

Second, there is a underestimated Problem with ITIL that also doesn't help the Implementation.
ITIL introduces a whole bunch of "required" Roles within processes it describes...
Unfortunately, if you carefully read the 5 books that describe them - there are over 100 different Roles explained - not because they actually are different, but because there was no coordination among the large amount of co-authors who have written the text.
If you have time to spare, you can cut the number to somewhere around 40+ Roles you have to accept.

However, the biggest problem I see with ITIL is not about it's processes it describes... It's about the whole concept. It's a guideline of best practices. A lot of "You should..." instead of "You Shall..."
And whenever you give your senior Management a solution guided by ITIL, they ask you... "Is it really necessary???" and you answer... "khmm, Well, we should..."
At that point most of them will leave it to you, as long as it is cheap to implement.
But even that is not the worst thing. The result of such approach is that your IT department that is seen as "a Black Box" by the rest of the company becomes even more black...
You will still be seen as a pure Cost Center instead as the most vital part of a company.
Let me write it down with Capital letters.... STAKEHOLDER MANAGEMENT is among the most important tasks you will have to do when implementing ITIL, together with a serious approach by using a Project management method like PRINCE2 or similar...

During my practical work I noticed that ISO 20000 is not only the almost perfect framework for IT service management, but actually the perfect way to excellence in doing a Business. Almost every part of the standard can be applied as a general Business process.
It has almost everything that all the other standards require but it's more demanding.

Now the good news.
If you are not a government agency, a Bank, a insurance company or maybe a ISP you probably don't need a ISO 20000 certification.
This doesn't mean that you don't need a high quality ITSM system in place.
And here it comes why I am in favor of FitSM. It brings you closer to the actual standard and helps to correctly manage your IT world.
Of course, if you are smart you will try to implement automation as much as possible to support that ITSM, especially you will introduce a Help Desk solution ( ticketing system)

Here comes my question - how much different is a IT Help Desk from let's say a workshop call center or a Reception Desk within a Hotel or a Backoffice at the local Drugstore around the corner?
They all handle Calls, E-mails, Claims of Customers etc. aren't they?
You handle Events, Incidents, Problems and Change requests regardless if they are IT related or the Toilet has to be fixed.
That's why it makes sense to consider to implement a Service Desk, that collects and handles ALL "requests" within your company because it's the most effective and economical way to do it.

A functional Service Desk is at the Heartbeat of a company and evaluating data it provides will give you almost every answer ANY management system will require.
And you know what? Change the angle you are looking at the Service Desk system and you are looking at a perfect Facility Management system.

Within your Service Catalog you can offer IT services the same way you can offer standard services to your employees, departments or customers ( through a customer portal). etc.
By analyzing the data you will not only get IT centric reports, but also a much better insight where the problems within your Business are and sometimes you notice Problems you aren't even aware.

That's why it seems to me that a framework makes sense. How it's done for real doesn't matter as long as it fits our goals and can be covered with resources we have.
From what I have seen within Odoo we have a lot of what is needed already done, but it's displaced at various places... I mean from the functional point of view.

from management-system.

I don't know if you will find this site www.itskeptic.org useful, but I think there are lot of blog entries that can help taking a view at the ITSM subject from a different angle...

Edit:
I was thinking a lot about what kind of documentation I could provide in order to look at some IT reference models and that there is no sharing restriction.
I went through all my resources and I found the following.
It's a FREE Tivoli tool called IBM Tivoli Unified Process (ITUP)
A great tool with a lot of cross-references between ITIL and other IT standards and recommendations...
Unfortunately, IBM doesn't update this tool any more, but it's content is still relevant

Here is the link to the setup file on my Google Drive : ITUP 7.1.4
It is 78MB large.

I hope you will like it.

from management-system.

Hi Everyone,

within my last postings I provided you a lot of information that really needs time to get processed. I know, I've been there. I hope you found ITUP as a useful resource.

This post will be a more practical one.

I would like to present you a Vision how we could solve the complete quality management question within a holistic approach without reinventing wheels and supporting existing standards.
Last week I gave myself a guideline what this approach should fulfill in order to keep it simple as it can be with such a subject.

• Don't reinvent wheels - If someone already made a proven metamodel -> USE IT!
• Find a core CMDB solution that is easily extensible with Common Information Models (CIM) as needed
• The Solution should benefit the whole Quality Management System and should be universal

Well, I imagine myself that I found what I was looking for and it seems to me that this could be a good starting point for discussion.
Please understand the following text simply as a proposal and don't shoot the messenger ;)

I'll first present you the concept and afterwards I'll make a practical suggestion how to go forward in a Step by Step Fashion.

The Genesis of the "Theory":
Within one of my previous posts I mentioned CMDBuild as an interesting project for ITSM.
After Daniels suggestion to see if we could make a "translation" of CMDBuild functionality into Odoo, I dedicated a whole afternoon to crawl through the source code of CMDBuild and I found the possible Foundation for Implementing a CMDB within Odoo.

Within the Code I discovered that the CMDBuild developers didn't start from scratch.
They started from the work done by the DMTF.org Community

The Concept looks like this:

I extracted this picture from this document:
DMTF_Standards_for_Federating_CMDBs_20090910v2.pdf

In general: DMTF.org defined everything what we need and it follows the principle of federation.
It introduces so called MDRs (Management Data Repositories) where it collects the data it doesn't have by it's own ( external systems like LDAP, Alfresco, OCS Inventory etc.)
At the bottom of this post there will be the link to DMTF.org CMDBf page
Instead of repeating what the website says, please take a look and make you own opinion.

DMTF also defined the Common Information Model ( CIM) for IT that can be applied into the CMDBf
The CIM standard includes a Specification and a Schema, as well as a Metamodel.
We don't have to reinvent the Wheel again!

But here it becomes interesting.

I was looking further for other CIM models and I found this picture:

Right away I was interested what OAGIS and MIMOSA have to say to this subject and it was not disappointing.
Some of you are maybe familiar with this project, but just for the record...
OAGIS stands for "Open Application Group Integration Specification" and it defines probably all processes needed for a ERP, please take a look at www.oagi.org

I don't know how actual this picture is, but it represents what OAGIS covers...

Every release has a commercial (Enterprise) Version and a Community Version.

MIMOSA is a Operations and Maintenance Information Open System Alliance
You can find more information at www.mimosa.org

This is a general Idea what it tries to cover:

There is a standard or specification to almost every industry specific request...
Even it is not our primary interest, if you have time please take a look at www.oasis-open.org and snoop into the "completed committees" list

Back to reality:

So what is this all good for?
I would like to discuss the following approach:

Step 1:
Let us look at the first picture again.
If we would implement a CMDBf as proposed by the DTMF Group, we could avoid starting from scratch and we would get a mature starting point.
IF we populate the CMDBf with a CIM for IT and other specialized CIM's like OAGIS and MIMOSA
we will get a very flexible Core of well defined and integrated business and technical processes.

But for the beginning lets start only with the IT CIM, just to keep it simple.
In future this CMDB could be expanded by integrating other specialized CIMs

All Odoo Applications that make use of the CMDB collected information would then be at the Presentation Layer

Step 2:
Such Application at the Presentation Layer would be the Service Desk as defined by ITIL
It should collect and keep evidence, evaluate and process all information that arrives through a call, e-mail or any other possible way.
The Scope of the Service Desk functionality is something that deserves a separate topic and If you are interested I would prepare a list what it should be capable of...

But for the beginning a functional ticketing system would be a good starting point.

Step 3:
Automated generation of documents required by FitSM

Step 4:
Within ITIL there is a mention of a Service Catalog for IT Services.
Often people developers don't know how to define such Service Catalog, but in fact it's trivial.

We only need to use Odoo Portal and E-commerce capabilities.
Instead of offering Merchandise, we can offer (IT) Services.
From my point of View the best approach would be to define a SelfService portal where we offer the Knowledgebase entries and a shopping Cart system where users could order a Service from a Portfolio based on their Security Clearance.
Let's say a HR Manager could order a Starter package for a new Employee.
This would then lead to set of messages to various departments (IT, Purchase, Maintenance Etc) in form of a WORK ORDER - and every one of them got a SLA attached securing that the order will be done on time.
A very nice byproduct is the possibility to give our Services a price-tag. This could help us (as ITSM provider) to develop a Charge-Back System to our internal customers within the company.
Even if nothing is charged, it's not a bad Idea to collect the financial value of delivered Services within the monthly and yearly summary reports to the Senior Management.
It helps us to get away from the pure Cost Centre perception of the IT department.

STEP 5:
Business logic integration???

Expected benefits:
If in time all CIMs of interest would be applied to our CMDB, developers could keep their focus on the presentation layer instead of "inventing" hard-coded processes...
Such a approach would provide Odoo the quality management system within its DNA
Odoo could be easily adjusted to any vertical industry solution in a very short time
This is also the case if standards would evolve further...

I know... this was a big post, sorry for that.

Don't hesitate to discuss anything wrote... It will help us clarify everything that bothers us...
The worst case scenario - you can still shoot the Messenger ;)

Enjoy your Weekend ;)

Dino

The links:

www.dmtf.org
CMDBf FAQ White Paper

from management-system.

From what i understood from your long post, the very first thing to do is to build the CIM for CMDB. I checked CIM schemas of DMTF and it was very crowded :) Are we supposed to implement all of those?

from management-system.

yeap... it was a really long post. Sorry for that.
I know such posts can be anoying...

It's up to us what we are going to do.
Honestly, the most important part is our motivation.
If we have it, then the "how" becomes less important as long as we achieve our goals as we want them.
If we are going towards ITIL...we have to find a way how to define our CMDB what ever the solution may be.
Well, we can do it from scratch or we can peek around and take a look how other people with a similar problem solved it. It doesn't mean that we have to agree with what we find.

also, the way I'm looking at the problem is only my opinion and as such it can be discussed or dissmissed.
I'm not on a ego trip to think that my way is the only way
Don't hesitate to argue with me. I will not get offended. ;)

from management-system.

Nice work, there's a lot to chew on ther @DinoJuric.
In my experience motivation fades away quickly if results don't appear.
We should have a sound reference framework, but we need to come down to earth quickly and pick a subset of the problem and get actual work done on it.

I would like to start work on the Service Desk topic.
IMO this should start with the Service catalogue, and then with the Service Desk processes.
Configuration Items would come next.

from management-system.

Honestly, back in the days I needed almost 2 years to become confident with the subject...
Everything depends how much real life experience as a IT Guy you have working with people (offering a service)
But it was a great help for me that I had "a Pain" I had to solve as a IT Manager that kept me motivated.
The more you know what "customers" are demanding, the more you understand the "why's" within ITIL

OK. Let's be practical.
Within the next few days I'm going to make a list of features that the Service Desk should have in an Ideal World and it wouldn't hurt If you guy's would do the same.
What ever feature we get duplicated should obviously be included within a "most valuable product" (MVP) and it should be (if possible) the first major Milestone. Let us get step by step there first.
Everything else can be categorized and rescheduled for the next MS or two...

In regard to the Service Catalog.
That't something that should be within the Presentation Layer.
I don't recommend the hard-coding.

A adopted Shopping Cart is a good solution.
Even better if we could have something like a Form editor in order to define the Options within a service.
The result of a selected and ordered Service should be one or more Work Orders generated and dispatched to the responsible person.
Security Issues, Approval procedures ( if needed) and completion tracking should be implemented.

How does it sounds to you guys?

from management-system.

I still don't get the full picture there, but the "list of features that the Service Desk should have in an Ideal World" sounds great.

I plan an implementation based on "Project Issues" and "Project Tasks".
In principle "Issues" would correspond to Requests/Incidents, and "Tasks" to Work Orders.
We would support, but not rely on standard "Projects".

Instead, we would add "Service Teams", that have a role similar to "Projects", but for Service Management applications.
This, along with a "Service Catalogue", would be the central pieces around what everything else would be built.
Some features I would like to have are described at OCA/project#174 and OCA/project#189.

The first thing is design the data structures supporting the apps.
Any specific pointers on that?

from management-system.

The first thing is design the data structures supporting the apps.
Any specific pointers on that?

Actually I have...
This is from the IBM knowledge center and should be used as a reference to get a insight how IBM control desk (maximo) is working. I think that is a good starting point to get an Idea...
Maximov7datamodels.zip

My only concern is that I have to check the copyright status of the other material I have...
But if we want to be on the sure track...
Everyone interested can register at IBM Developerworks
after signing-in visit this page

there are a bunch of useful docs that are describing best practices...
It's not something that we have to follow blindly but it can give us guidelines what we have to think about if we want to develop our own solution.

from management-system.

I started writing the specs for the Service Management app in a section of the document at the top of this Issue: see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z6OJIs5FXMuqVeRm63TgXDW4bXh9z292qnDSV0hwUNM/edit#heading=h.r6kek4hn2b1

from management-system.

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunately I don't have much spare time these days so that I'm late finishing the "check list" for the "Service Desk" I promised.

Until then, I adopted for you a ISO20000 GAP Analysis I personally use for the last few years...
I mentioned earlier that achieving ISO20000 is literally painful ;) and here you have the proof why :)
GAP Analysis ISO 20000.xlsx

Within this Excel sheet you will find ALL the questions you have to ask in order to fulfill the requirements.
It doesn't say you HOW to achieve it. Every Company is different by scope and resources they have.
So, if you want to automate it - Great.
If you can demonstrate the capability of keeping control - a set of paper records are also fine.
In time I made some comments beside some of the questions as I personally felt that it needed a explanation ( for my colleagues)
If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask.

I'm playing with the Idea to enhance this tool with correlating requirements for FitSM, similar Daniel did within the document at the top of this Issue... let me know if this could be helpful for you.

In regard of distributing this tool, I would kindly ask you to keep it within this group.
It's not intended for forwarding without permission. I hope you can respect my position.

Have a great Weekend

from management-system.

@max3903 I wonder if it's not wise to not try and fit this into the existing project.task project.issue space and look at ISO20000 as a completely new paradigm starting with the base units of Events, Incidents, Problems and Change requests. It would certainly mean that it would lean less on the existing odoo infrastructure, but given all the information that @DinoJuric has provided, it looks much more comprehensive than that current odoo service desk.

from management-system.

@antibios Using existing Tasks and Issues will allow to leverage features added to those models, such as timesheets and materials spent, or SLAs (already implemented for Tasks).

from management-system.

@DinoJuric Good resource. From my PoV we should start with the 6.1 section.

from management-system.

@antibios you got it right by pointing out that Events, Incidents, Problems and Change requests as BASE UNITS.
In fact - The Event is in the Beginning of ALL processes. We always need a "trigger" to decide if we have a "Incident" or a "Problem" that requires a Change or we decide to leave it the Way it is (but with a documented explanation)
This is true regardless if you are dealing with ISO 20000 or any other ISO standard. But ISO 20000 is in this regard the most restrictive.
On the other Hand it would be very unpractical if we would develop a solution that wouldn't lean on the existing odoo infrastructure and evolve from there - because of one simple reason: the "holy grale" of IT -> Grab/Capture the Information when it appears THE FIRST time! Store it and move on from there...
Within Odoo we have stored somewhere almost every information we need. It would be a waste not to use it ;)

The key concept to every Service is that we (the service provider) are making a Commitment defined through a SLA... Everything else has a supporting Role. The Service Desk, all processes, policies and alike are supporting our Commitment that we will fulfill our given Promise to deliver whatever was negotiated.
The Warranty for the delivery - is the SLA. The key framework for almost every offered Service.

Please take a look at this picture. It's a Workflow for a Service Catalog Item...
This could be an example for requesting a new laptop or any other equipment.

Every stage colored in blue that has a time frame listed - could be defined by it's own SLA.
A Commitment/Promise that a Task WILL be done in a certain manner or time frame...
A SLA can be aligned with a contract or it can be a internal procedure we all agreed to.

So, what are the Elements of an SLA? Here is a example -> sla-template.docx

You will find out that most of the Data needed is probably already somewhere within odoo.
Especially if we are using the CRM app. All of this data should be part of our CMDB.

We definitely have to declare "something" as our CMDB infrastructure and it doesn't matter if it is federated within the existing data as long they are consistent and properly documented.

@dreispt 6.1 is a good starting point, but it's closely connected with chapter 7 (Service Relationships)
because in order to fulfill chapter 6 requirements you have to deal a lot with data from the CRM app
as well as with other data pools defining Assets, Employees, Customers, Contract documentation, Locations etc. So, it's not always easy to separate the chapters. They are cross-connected.

I understand that the Project App has the feature of defining Issues, tasks and SLAs and that it seems logical to start from there...
My personal opinion would be that this App should/could be used for solving Problem issues and Change request Management because they have a project character.
Event and Incident management are solved on a much faster pace and a Help Desk (ticketing) system is a more natural environment for them... but it also needs a feature to define SLAs, to assign tasks and reporting.

Do you think that it would be difficult to separate the SLA mechanism from the Project App so that it can be "imported" to every App that needs this kind of functionality?
Also, I could imagine a separate App with a mechanism to handle Work Orders (Tasks) of all kind. A WO could be generated automatically from a (ITIL) process or it could be generated manually...
Such mechanism (library) could be used everywhere where task management is required.
It would be definitely the foundation for a successful Service Catalog ( where all Offers are known and the Tasks are defined upfront )
This could also be used within the standard Manufacturing App and a natural extension (part) of the Help Desk

As always, this is as always my subjective opinion that can be discussed or dismissed ;)

from management-system.

The place to start is to define the "Service Portfolio" tree and the "Configuration Items" tree.
The design should include how these are expected to be used in "Service Events" (requests, Incidents, ...), since this is relevant for the overall design.
We can do that in Maxime's document.

from management-system.

There hasn't been any activity on this issue in the past 6 months, so it has been marked as stale and it will be closed automatically if no further activity occurs in the next 30 days.
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from management-system.