I'm not sure if "Tsunami" is a good name. But I need your opinion. about tsunami-security-scanner HOT 72 CLOSED

Hi, I am a Japanese Software Developer.

In my opinion, I do not think Tsunami is unsuitable name.

Tsunami is just natural phenomenon. As you know "Dagger" are killing many people. But many Android app developers use that :)

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I side with @keiji.
Although I do agree that Tsunamis have brought devastating disasters and many people may be traumatized with the word, Tsunamis are a natural phenomenon, not caused by human.

I speculate the term "Tsunami" was brought up because of the wave of attacks.
Maybe the term "Seawall" or "Breakwater" (防波堤) might also be a good candidate if the team is considering to change the project name :)

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Hi, I am a member of this project. Thanks @inductor for bringing up the issue and everyone for the active discussions.

We did not intend to make anyone feel uneasy and apologize for the troubles that this might have caused. We would like to clarify the intended meaning behind the name: Internally, the Tsunami Security Scanner is part of a bigger system that we initially called the "Tsunami Early Warning System". The purpose of this system is to warn us about automated "attack waves". Automated attacks are similar to Tsunamis in the way that they come suddenly, without prior warning and can cause a lot of damage to organizations if no precautions are taken (e.g. see Equifax, CapitalOne breaches). The term "Tsunami Early Warning System Security Scanner" is quite long and thus most folks simply abbreviated the name to "Tsunami Security Scanner". Hence, the name is not an analogy to Tsunami itself, but to a system that detects them and warns everyone about them.

We will update our documentation to provide more details about the choice of name. We hope that this addresses the concerns. We will close this issue for now, but please let us know if you have further concerns or objections.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

I'm leaning against the side to change the product name because of the following reasons:

• The image of the word "tsunami" reminds the massive wave attack and the disaster as a result of it, and I'm not sure if it describes the characteristics of the product.
• Though "Tsunami" itself is the natural phenomena, as it's defined, it comes with a disastrous damage, which is the difference from "tidal wave" as terminology in meteorology, and the word itself has negative message to some people, at least me.
• As @qsona mentioned, it used to be more neutral word and was used as the title of a famous song, but the song was refrained from playing on TV and radio for a while after 2011 Tohoku earthquake because of the title, which was the result of the image the disaster had.

Given above, I think this is a good opportunity to think about the product name with reviewing the Code of Conduct and the product marketing message. Though the latter one is not shared in this repository.

If the authors have the background on naming the product, then it's great to have it publicly, and if not, I feel it's safer to have more descriptive name for the product.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

By the way, maybe it's because I lost my house and family in the tsunami.
I would feel bad if a global company like Amazon or Google, not only for this project, but also for the widespread activities of a global company like Amazon or Google, named their software or service after a tsunami that has nothing to do with the tsunami.

If Google were a private developer with no influence over Japan in this corner of the world, the name of the software I think it's rather nonsensical to force people to change their names to

As the software is also used by the Japanese, I think it is important to consider whether the name of the project, which is not directly related to the tsunami, really needs to be tsunami.

===

ちなみに私が家や家族を津波で失っているからかもしれませんが、
このプロジェクトに限らず、もしAmazonやGoogleのようなグローバルな企業が、津波と関係のないソフトウェアやサービス名に津波の名前をつけて、広域な活動をしていたら嫌な気持ちになります。

Googleが世界の片隅の日本に対して何の影響力もない個人開発者だったらソフトウェア名の改名を迫ることはむしろナンセンスだと思いますが

日本人も使うソフトウェアである以上、津波に直接関係しないプロジェクトの名前が、本当に津波である必要性があるのかは考えるべきだと思います

from tsunami-security-scanner.

I'm lacking context: was there a specific complaint? If so, perhaps that should be brought up.

In terms of pure terminology, Tsunami, Hurricane, Tornado, Earthquake... all of these sound fine to me. They are dangerous, they are sometimes cause of great grief, but they are natural phenomena and I don't think there exists an underlying harmful intention. As a counter example, I think one could argue that a term like Kalashnikova (aka AK-47) represents tool made to specifically kill people and therefore should be avoided to be used in a project name. In this sense I think Tsunami seems OK to me.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Original Issue author here.
I appreciate a lot for your comments and let me add something to my original opinion.

This thread is already getting to be dramatic with lots of Japanese comments, so let's please add any more comments if you are...

1. involved with this project.
2. one of the earthquake victims with tsunami; not just for 311, there were some other big earthquakes such as Sumatra earthquake
3. neither of 1 or 2 but still want to add something to this as non-Japanese point of view.
4. with a better name suggestion

Hope you understand.

Issueを作ったものです。
皆様の多数のご意見本当にありがとうございます。意見がかなり増えてしまったので一旦ここで歯止めをしておきたいです。

ここから先は、以下のいずれかに該当する方のコメントをお願いいたします。

1. 本OSSプロジェクトのステークホルダー
2. 津波を伴う大規模地震の被災者(311に限らず、世界中でいろいろな震災があったかと思います)
3. どちらにも該当しないが、日本人ではない立場、視点から意見をいただける方
4. より良い名前の提案がある方

ご理解の程よろしくおねがいします。

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Hi, I'm a Tokyo-based developer.
I'm not a stakeholder of this project, but I have a question.

Why is this project using a "destructive" name?

When I first heard "Tsunami", I thought it might be a kind of attacking tool.
Tsunami (real tsunami) destructs everything - buildings, cars, ships and human lives.
I understand that some security scanning tools behave like attackers to some extent but they don't contemplate to destruct system unrecoverably.
Especially, this tool (tsunami-security-scanner) is to "scan non-intrusively". This is the opposite of real tsunami.

In my humble opinion, negative image of the word aside, it looks weird.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Please stop any more comments until google posts here

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Hi. I am also a Japanese engineer.

I know many people in Japan and other countries are affected by earthquakes and tsunamis, but, I feel no negative from the word "Tsunami" itself, just feel warning.
This tool attacks a target like a "Tsunami", I agree to why you choose this name.

So in my opinion, there are no need to change the name.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

@keiji
"Black" is a natural color, and "Master" is a type of degree.
But "allow list" / "deny list" is preferable, and Github is trying to change it from "master" to" main", right?
I think it's the same thing in that some people feel undesirable, but what do you think?

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"Tsunami" means an attacking tool rather than a defencing tool. I propose it should be named after a breakwater.

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"Tsunami" definitely reminds me of the 3.11 disaster in Japan and makes me uneasy. IMO, the number of Japanese those feel uncomfortable due to this reason is not very small. I hope the name to be changed.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

3\. どちらにも該当しないが、日本人ではない立場、視点から意見をいただける方

This implies that Japanese people do not comment.
This is discrimination based on nationality.
It is against the spirit of FLOSS.

Issues opened by discriminators should be closed. You should expel the discriminators.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

@magl0 First and foremost, I wanted to say congratulations on your newly starting project.

While I respect your decision, only thing I want you to do is to learn what Tsunami is and what 3.11 was like. You can learn it anytime on Youtube before you update the documentation. That's it.

I wish someday Google will pay respect to minorities like us.

Cheers.

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To be honest, Tsunami sounds SUUUUPER negative to me, and it's OK if you want to use some negative name.
But if you were thinking Tsunami sounds like something cool, I would disagree.

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Why don’t we just wait for the googles statement now

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現在のところ"Tsunamiというワードについて、googleはどう思いますか？"以外の質問はされていないように見受けられました。質問内容が広く、かつ、議論も成熟していない状態では、公式見解を出すのは難しいと感じました。
「全く他意は無いし批判をするつもりもない」と@inductorのTwitterに書かれていましたが、"googleの意見を聞きたい"というのが"@inductorの本意"ということでしょうか？
もしかしたら、"just a curiosity"だったり、対立を避けるためだったのかもしれませんが、質問をされる場合は少なくともご自身の意見も述べられた方が、Issueとして分かりやすく、返事がしやすいように思います。「いいかどうか分からないけど、あなたの意見はどうですか？」と聞かれても、私であれば議論しにくいです。

また、"googleの意見を待とう"という意見が多いようですが、Maintainerにとって負担になっていないかと危惧しています。
少なくとも、私は"○○さんがこんなことしてます。所属先としてはどう思いますか？"ということを私の会社に問い合わせしないで欲しいですし、どなたかの会社に問い合わせしたくもありません。（Googleのレポジトリなので、ある程度は仕方ないとは思いますが。）
できるだけ所属とは関係のない自由な議論をOpen Source Communityではしたいと、私は望んでいます。

Issueを見た印象では、Open Source CommunityとしてもっとMaintainerと利用者のモチベーションが上がるような議論をしたいな、と感じました。
例えば、"○○の環境でも使えると嬉しいです。予定はありますか？"とか聞いてもらった方が、私は嬉しいです。
このプロジェクトが成し遂げようとしていることは、セキュリティリスクにさらされている人が見れば興味深く、とても助かる内容で、リリース時や修正時など、様々な場面で利用できればと考えています。
Maintainerさんが楽しく遊べるようにしていくのもOpen Source Communityの役割の一つだと私は思います。

個人的には、Tsunamiというネーミングは確かにビックリしましたが、この言葉が広く使われることで、津波に対する危険性が広まり、次の被害が軽減されればと考えています。
今後、Tsunamiに関するWORDを日本人コミュニティが全て拒否した場合「大規模な地震発生の際に津波の発生の可能性があるので高いところに逃げる必要がある」ということが、世界的に忘れられることを危惧しています。個人的には映像が頭に残っており痛みもありますが、Tsunamiの存在を世界中に知っていただき、次の災害に備えることが肝要と思います。
ソフトウェア名としての存在にどこまで効果があるかは分かりませんが、Tsunamiに対するWORD問題は単純ではないと私は考えます。
また、Tsunamiから連想される印象は確かに怖いですが、「すべて（のセキュリティ問題）を潰す」という意味では、ネーミング自体の意味が不明とは思いませんでした。
以上の理由から積極的に賛成するわけではないですが、私はTsunamiのネーミングには反対ではありません。

ところで、道義的な論点にも関わらず、コメントできる人を過去の経験や所属国等より制限することは、どのような意図があったのでしょうか？
自分に意見を言う権利が無いと思うと残念ながら差別されたような印象を受けました。経験者と非経験者の思いの違いを対比することも重要かもしれませんが、色々な立場の人と分け隔てなく議論することが重要だと思います。Open CommunityであるGithub Issue内で発言者を限定されたいとのことですが、現実的には、Maintainer以外には難しいと思います。redditやご自身のgithub repositoryやご自身のtwitter等で先に議論された方が@inductorが望まれるような意見の選別が行えたのではないかと思います。
また、一般的なcommentに対して、利用者側の人がcommentのdeleteをお願いするのはこれまで見たことが無く、失礼にあたるように感じました。
技術的な論点であれば、○○できる人の意見を求める、というのは理解しやすいですが。
今さらかもしれませんが、使用WORDについてMaintainerにお聞きされたいとのことでしたので、Maintainerに直接メールをされればcloseなのでお話ししやすく、建設的な話し合いができると思います。

from tsunami-security-scanner.

OK, Let's wait for the google statement.

But I would like to only say this.
"Tsunami" are natural phenomenon, Japanese family name, first name or geographical name.

maybe I think many people have a negative image of a Tsunami, however, I wonder the person with this name doesn't would like people have a negative image for themselves name.

So, I just can only say that Tsunami is meaning not always negative in Japanese.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

@sapics @intercept6
返事が遅くなってしまってすみません。
コメントに付いて制限した理由は以下の2つでした。

1. （それなりに予想はできていたものの）予想を上回る流速でコメントが流れそうだった
2. 僕の主観でこれ以上日本人ばっかりコメントしても新たな意見が出るとは思えなかった

今見返してみるとお二人のおっしゃるとおり完全なダブルスタンダードで、このトピックに対して自分の対応は矛盾したものになっていました。お詫びさせてほしいです。申し訳ありません。

それもあって一旦メンテナの意見を待つという対応をとったのですが、そもそも初動がよくなかったという反省もあります。

もしかしたら、"just a curiosity"だったり、対立を避けるためだったのかもしれませんが

これは全くそのとおりで、これ以上深く考えていなかった、というのが僕の正直な回答です。

@sapics さんが提案しておられることはどれも建設的でいいなと思いますが、僕自身GitHubやチャット、Twitterなどでコミュニケーションをとることが最もなれた手段であり、クローズドな方法やメールを使うという方法も思いついていませんでした。

今回のIssueを発端にいろいろなことを勉強させていただきましたが、未熟さのために様々な人に不快をさせてしまい反省しています。ご意見心より感謝を申し上げます。

from tsunami-security-scanner.

In my opinion, "Tsunami" is popular word like "TSUNAMI" that Japanese famous song.
But also "Tsunami" is a strong word, especially after 3.11 in Japan. Some people feel scary, Some people feel sadness.

Anyway, my suggestion is "How about 'Shiosai not Tsunami".
"Shiosai" is meant to be emotional.
"Shiosai" is the sound of being a full tide.
"Shiosai" is not wave as strong as tsunami.

if this tool has meaning of wave. Please consider.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

I have a question for authors of this OSS. What kind of wishes and/or expectations did you give this name?

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@habuka036

I really appreciate that you'll respectfully wait for them. However, I would not like to make any exception and there should not be no "but" after my suggestion.

I really hope you will delete your comment. I would have asked the same thing no matter what your opinion is. I apologize.

I will delete this comment when you kindly follow my offer.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

In fact, there is a song which has same name and is very famous in Japan. It was released in 2000. I think it indicates that whether some name is acceptable or not is related to historical context. The really big tsunami disaster was occurred in 2011 and 10 years have passed after that. Of course I still have pain and have slight feelings not want to recall it, but personally I don't think you need to change the name. Changing name is certainly an extra work and I think we shouldn't force it unless there is a huge requirement.

But I also think it's safer if this tool will become very famous... (e.g. 20k stars)

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Ok. Corona beer sounds offensive to you?

Naming new product and changing the name of long lived product is a different issue.
Changing long-used name has very high cost, because many people know and love "Corona Beer" already. Changing the name will lose some existing fans.
But if you are naming new drink, why do you name it "Corona"? It will lost many potential new fans.

Additionally, "Tsunami" is word borrowed from Japanese. And many Japanese still have strong association between "Tsunami" and the 3.11 disaster. So listening on how Japanese people feels when hear the word "Tsunami" is a good consideration.

Tsunamis have caused disasters for centuries but there's a popular song named "Tsunami"? Interesting.

The popular song "TSUNAMI" by "Southern All Stars" (2000) was named before the 3.11 disaster (2011).
And they stop singing "TSUNAMI" since 3.11 for consideration, although many fans waiting it.
This is one example how TSUNAMI and 3.11 are special in Japanese.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

To: Maintainers
Apology for Japanese text.
I would like to shake hands (仲直り) with @inductor.
For this purpose, Japanese text is safer method for me.

Thank you for your answer.
We will update our documentation to provide more details about the choice of name.
looks good for me.

@inductor
私の方こそ、書きすぎてしまい大変申し訳ありませでした。今見直すと、Personalな感じがして私の書き方自体も良くなかったです。気分を害されたようでしたら、本当に申し訳ありません。

@sapics さんが提案しておられることはどれも建設的でいいなと思いますが、
僕自身GitHubやチャット、Twitterなどでコミュニケーションをとることが最もなれた手段であり、
クローズドな方法やメールを使うという方法も思いついていませんでした。

私も実際のところ、Openな場で意見をselectするのは難しいかなとは思いながら書きましたので、何か他にあったかな、程度に思っていただければ幸いです。Wordingの炎上しやすさを考えると、メールという選択肢はあったかもしれません。
私個人としましては、どちらかといえば「意見はどんどん書いてください。取り入れたい意見は取捨選択します」的なのがかっこよく感じますが、好き嫌い程度の話ですので、ぜひ聞き流してください。
聞き流したいけどできないようなcommentもissueによってはあるので、私もそこまで実践できているかは怪しいです ;)

個人的には、@inductorさんのようにOpen Source Communityの中で大変ご活躍されている方をとても尊敬しているため、commentを消すように誘導されていたのに対して違和感を感じて、意見を書かせていただきました。
尊敬の念が大きくなりすぎて、逆に書きすぎたかもしれません。

本issueの作成自体は、projectの方に私達には複雑な気持ちを感じるwordなのだと知っていただける機会になり、良かったと思います。
We will update our documentation to provide more details about the choice of name. と書いていただけたのは本当に良かったと思っていますし、@inductorさんのおかげだと思います。

少し分野は違いますが、今後もOpen Source Communityにてご活躍されることを陰ながら応援しています！

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Random dude here.

I understand the feelings of Japanese devs thinking Tsunami might not be an appropriate name(my friend lost his home on 3.11 but luckily survived), but I also think they might be a bit too sensitive.

Let's say if this product was named after some other natural disasters involving some deaths, like Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Volcanic Eruptions, Avalanches, Landslides, Meteor strikes or something like that. If google team still thinks it's not that big problem, then yeah, I'd say go for it. If they don't, they should look for better names.

EDIT: I've just found that there already is an web server framework called cyclone.io on python. We all should think carefully that bringing out sentimental logic could affect these existing products.

日本語版:
通りすがりです。

日本人の方々の「不適切じゃないか」という反応も理解はできるのですが（友人が家を失くしたりしたので）、若干過剰反応じゃないかなあと思わないでもないです。

例えばこのプロジェクトが津波じゃなくて別の人死が出る自然災害の名前から付けられたとして、それでもGoogleが問題ないと判断してるならそれで良いんじゃないかなと思います。例えば台風とか竜巻とか噴火とか火砕流とか雪崩とか地滑りとかメテオストライク的な。彼らがそれはちょっと…と思うのなら変えたほうが良いんじゃないかなって程度です。

追記: 先程cyclone.ioというpythonのwebサーバフレームワークがあることを知りました。これも津波と同様に毎年人死がある自然災害ですので、「人が死んだのに」とか「悲しくなる」的な論理はこういった既存のサービスにも持ち出されうるものですから、慎重に考えたいですね。

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I have no idea about "Tsunami" is a good or bad name, but I'm simply interested in why this project named "Tsunami".

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Hi @madai0517,

No, I think black/white and master/slave discussion is about discrimination.
I think it doesn't related this discussion.

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As a Japanese software developer, I felt it was nonsense to rename at a first glance.
But I found I'd feel scared if it were such as "earthquake" or "atomic bomb" etc. every time I heard the name (I wonder whether there are more suitable words reminding people of such fear). So I guess there are a number of people who feel in that way.
"Tsunami" would give us a wrong impression with this software.

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@blacklistisnotracist
No, because I know it is not named from current coronavirus disaster though Corona beer and coronavirus may have same origin of name, the corona of the sun, and though if I am one of victims, Corona beer sounds offensive to me.

However, Tsunami of OSS is different. It is named, not before 3.11, which is known as one of the worst disasters of the world.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

The tsunami is not a bad image, it is used as the title of a Japanese major song, and is widely known to the people.
Youtube TSUNAMI / Southern All Stars
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSUNAMI
Let's hope he's not one of those hypocrites.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Fantastic #letsDoThis also lets get rid of Dagger as well xD

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@magl0 Thank you very much for your response. I really appreciate it.
Also I apologize that my first move was not mature. I was trying to be, but in retrospect I was not enough, and did not think deeply as the perspective of OSS maintainers.

Again, thank you for your answer.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

@blacklistisnotracist Even though so, I believe we can continue to try to select suitable words in order to make them more harmless. As you said, it may cause infinite efforts to change the words. Even though so, I don't think such efforts become useless. I believe "the history of justice" is made from such efforts.

from tsunami-security-scanner.

Currently, it seems that no other questions have been asked other than "What do you think about google about the word Tsunami?" I felt that it was difficult to give an official opinion when the questions were broad and the discussion was not mature.
It was written on Twitter of @inductor that "I have no other intention and I do not intend to criticize", but is it that "I want to hear google's opinion" is "the intention of @inductor"?
Maybe it was "just a curiosity" or it was to avoid a conflict, but when asking a question, it is better that at least your opinion is stated as an issue, and the reply will be answered. I think it's easy. Even if asked, "I don't know if it's okay, what's your opinion?", it's hard for me to argue.

Also, it seems that there are many opinions that "wait for google's opinion", but I am concerned that it may be a burden on the Maintainer.
At the very least, I don't want my company to ask "What does XX do this. What do you think of where you belong?", and I don't want to contact anyone. (Since it is Google's repository, I think it can be helped to some extent.)
I want Open Source Community to have free discussions that have nothing to do with my affiliation.

From the impression that I saw the Issue, I felt that I would like to discuss as an Open Source Community so that the Maintainer and users will be more motivated.
For example, I'd be happy if someone asked me, "I'm happy if I can use it in the ○○ environment. Do you have any plans?"
What this project is trying to accomplish is interesting and very helpful for those exposed to security risks, and I hope it can be used in various situations, such as when releasing or fixing.
I think that one of the roles of the Open Source Community is to make Maintainer enjoyable to play.

Personally, the name Tsunami was certainly surprised, but I hope that the widespread use of this term will spread the danger of the tsunami and reduce the next damage.
In the future, if the Japanese community rejects all WORDs related to Tsunami, "it is necessary to escape to a high place because there is a possibility of a tsunami in the event of a large-scale earthquake", which is forgotten worldwide I am worried. Personally, the image remains in my head and it is painful, but I think it is important to let the world know about Tsunami and prepare for the next disaster.
I'm not sure how effective its existence as a software name is, but I think the WORD problem for Tsunami is not simple.
Also, the impression that Tsunami associates is certainly scary, but I didn't think that the naming itself was bad in the sense of "crushing all (security problems)".
For these reasons, I do not object to Tsunami naming.

By the way, what was your intention to limit the number of people who can comment, regardless of past experience or country, despite the moral issues?
Unfortunately, I felt that I was discriminated against because I didn't have the right to speak. It may be important to contrast the differences in thoughts of experienced people and inexperienced people, but I think it is important to discuss with people of various positions indiscriminately. It is said that you want to limit the speakers within the Github Issue, which is an Open Community, but in reality, it is difficult for anyone other than the Maintainer. I think that those who discussed earlier in reddit, your own github repository, your own twitter, etc. could have selected the opinions that @inductor is desired.
In addition, I have never seen a person on the user side request a delete of a comment for a general comment, and I felt it was rude.
If it's a technical issue, it's easy to understand that you should ask for the opinion of someone who can.
Perhaps even now, I wanted to ask the Maintainer about the WORD used, so if you directly email the Maintainer, it will be close because it is easy to talk and I think that you can have a constructive discussion.

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I also thought "Tsunami" is a sort of mass destruction tool. Setting aside the disaster the word might imply, I hope products have the name which avoids such misunderstandings.

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#5 (comment) @inductor
This comment limits raising opinions by nationality.
I don't think we should limit the increase in opinion.
I don't think you are a discriminator, if so please drop this comment?

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I don't think we need a deadline; If the core devs ignores, it means it isn't important for them.

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Hi,
Sorry for the delay. We now updated the documentation to provide some background/clarification on the choice of naming.
https://github.com/google/tsunami-security-scanner/blob/master/docs/index.md#naming

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To do so, information security teams need to have the ability to implement and roll out detectors for novel security issues at scale in a very short amount of time. Furthermore, it is important that the detection quality is consistently very high.

https://github.com/google/tsunami-security-scanner/blob/e7f68ddc072de246892dd7531e801732543f18ea/docs/index.md

How about fast-security-scanner or quick-security-scanner as an alternative?

The problem is that: If this project continues to use this name, I cannot recommend this tool to my friends live in the Tohoku area.

この名前のままだと「誰にでも気持ちよく紹介できるような名前ではない」という点が問題として残ると思います。

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@keiji

Tsunami is just natural phenomenon. As you know "Dagger" are killing many people. But many Android app developers use that :)

If you say it's a natural phenomenon and it's not a problem, then even if you named it 9.11, it's just Doesn't that mean it's not a problem because of the date?
If Google were to rename "Android OS" to "Tsunami OS" or "World Trade Center OS"... Imagine renaming it.
Are you sure it's not in bad taste because it's just a natural phenomenon or the name of a building?

===

自然現象だから問題ないというのであれば、仮に9.11という名前をつけたとしても、ただの日付だから問題ないという事になりませんか？
もしGoogleがAndroid OSの名前をTsunami OSやWorld Trade Center OSに改名するとしたら、ただの自然現象やビルの名前だから悪趣味ではないと本当に言えるのでしょうか

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@kanitabe #5 (comment)

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I'm with @blacklistisnotracist . Banning words depending on its sphere of influence is somewhat a map of denial of minority. I think we should seek true fairness rather than walking that way.
The use of the word Tsunami should be judged solely on whether it represents this OSS in a straightf
orward, dynamic, and impressive enough way.

Speaking of that, I don't think the name represents the OSS much.
Tsunamis are fast, but they don't scale, nor are made of components.

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Since the maintainer said the documentation will be updated, I thought the last maintainer's comment will be reflected in the documentation. But there are no changes until today. This means that the maintainers just forgot it or changed their thought. I posted the previous comment for the former case. Of course, the latter is also ok.

I thought this topic is important, joined this, understood the maintainer's answer, and expected the changes in the documentation as the maintainer said. But there are no changes until today. I was wondering that no one asked this. Not all commenters assessed this as high and some transient interests have made the discussion worse, I think today.

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Hi, I'm a Japanese developer.
I too think this product needs to be renamed.

If the concept of the product is to be a tool to scan for vulnerabilities, Tsunami reminded me of something like a large-scale software attack, since I'm on the receiving end of a disaster.

I thought a name that reminded me of a breakwater, like @zacky1972, would be good as another name.

Thanks.

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@yuzujoe
Please refrain from posting any other comments if you just want to agree with something that other people already posted...
See also #5 (comment)

Thanks for your understanding.

Let's hope @magl0 or someone else that is involved with this project writes something soon! 🙏

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I don't disagree with using Tsunami as a product name, but I disagree with using Tsunami for commercial purposes. In general, people wouldn't accept someone to do unrelated business using people's pain. Many Japanese people would feel uncomfortable with the use of Tsunami for commercial purposes. If Tsunami is used for non-commercial and public benefit products or projects, it will be widely accepted.

Another, do you want to use Pandemic for the name of this product? Using Tsunami for the name of this product is the same as it. Neither Pandemic nor Tsunami is appropriate for the name of this unrelated product.

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I've just noticed why I've been making an effort and a commitment to it, by discussion with @blacklistisnotracist .
This is a kind of marketing issues. I believe Google has been one of the most reliable and dream companies for almost Japanese. I worry about loss of such a reliance or "brand" from Japanese.

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So, what’s the issue? Goodness or badness of the tsunami prefix in the product name?

I think that the issue is unawareness of a strong contextual bias behind the word of tsunami as of today, that still bounds us Japanese onto an association between the word and the disaster.

1. I believe that most of Japanese (incl. me) is still uncomfortable for the word but I hope Japanese would be recovered from the injure somewhere else in some future.
2. I believe that there should be a fair judgement (good or bad) on the naming out of the contextual bias; The word of tsunami is naturally meaningful as far as I know.

EDIT: P.S. I meant Japanese is everyone who lives in an area where Japanese language is commonly used or who lives with Japanese language in a daily basis.

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I don't think that our opinion has been become a waste.
And I think we must be respectful to project members.
Please.

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IMHO: Keep the name (Never change it away) but watch tsunami videos in YouTube and please re-define the word of tsunami by the product.

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@blacklistisnotracist I can understand your words because I, and almost Japanese, were also "innocence" for the word "Tsunami", before 3.11. There are some evidences, i.e. a famous Japanese song "Tsunami", singed by Southern All Stars, and a famous Japanese animation movie "Ponyo on the cliff", which describes a very fantastic story before and after "Tsunami".
Of course, after 3.11, we never create such a song and movie.

A "Tsunami" is so destructive that its victims may flash back disgusting and clear images against their minds. Imagine your customer that you recommend to introduce this OSS to is such a victim of Tsunami. This causes the worst user experiences.

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A "Tsunami" is so destructive that its victims may flash back disgusting and clear images against their minds. Imagine your customer that you recommend to introduce this OSS to is such a victim of Tsunami. This causes the worst user experiences.

We, Japanese software engineers, are faced with such kind of issues, because there are too many victims of Tsunami in Japan!

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Well, Arashi seems to mean "storm", and I know a lot of people died of storms. It's the same.

I think it is inappropriate to tell things just by the person who passed away.
I'm sorry if it's unnatural because of machine translation.

私は、亡くなった人だけで判別をするのは不適切だと思います。
一部機械翻訳を用いているため不自然な英語だったら申し訳ございません。

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Disaster is a different issue from discrimination. Therefore referring master/slave or blacklist/whitelist is not effective on this issue. For example, existing names using master/slave may to be asked to change, but Tsunami wasn't asked. This is one of the difference between them.

Discrimination creates mistakes. So you must correct the wrongs. Disasters create trauma instead of mistakes. So there is basically no need to correct the wrongs. But you need to take into account the trauma. Japanese people pay a lot of attention to the word Tsunami. Google should also pay the same attention.

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We will update our documentation to provide more details about the choice of name.

Today, there are no changes in the documentation about this. Has this discussion become a waste?

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This means that the maintainers just forgot it or changed their thought. I posted the previous comment for the former case. Of course, the latter is also ok.

Or, as one possibility, they are busy for various reasons.

Please.

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@intercept6

I see.

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Hi, although I'm not a stakeholder nor a victim of 3.11, I feel compelled to leave a comment since one important point is being missed out.

Terms should be and have been changed when it impacts the way society works.
For example, whitelist/blacklist enforces and is based on our image of white being superior and black being inferior, thus promoting racism in one way. Since GitHub expresses anti-racism, this change was ought to be made as a social justice issue.

However, it would be sincere (although not necessary) for a large company not to use terms that might offend people.
GitHub stopped using master/slave since it brings back sad memories for the black community; although this is a sincere act to show support for the black community, this change does not stop racism nor change the way we think.
Same with Google. The word Tsunami might offend people and decrease Google's popularity in Japan or other suffering regions, but it never gets better than simply being 'nice'.

While whitelist/blacklist is about social justice as a company, master/slave and Tsunami is about being sincere and maintaining popularity.
Google might change the word Tsunami if they think the impact is big enough to drop Google's popularity and thus income in Japan and other suffering regions, but this is completely up to them to decide.

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I can't stop coming back here today, where I realized the word of "Tsunami" is still so meaningful for me. Big thank you to this issue.

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@blacklistisnotracist

There are some evidences, i.e. a famous Japanese song "Tsunami", singed by Southern All Stars, and a famous Japanese animation movie "Ponyo on the cliff", which describes a very fantastic story before and after "Tsunami".
Of course, after 3.11, we never create such a song and movie.

Were you trying to say that these were the evidence of the word "tsunami" being a sensitive word for Japanese people?

No. These are the evidence that almost Japanese were innocent to the word "Tsunami".

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@blacklistisnotracist

Of course, all Japanese know Tsunami is a kind of disasters and that Tsunami causes tragedies historically.
However, it was only knowledge for almost Japanese.
I meant this by the word 'innocent'.

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@intercept6 Did you mean the comment #5 (comment) forces opinions that follows it to be limited only by nationality?

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@zacky1972
Yes, I think it limits the opinions of Japanese who are not victims.

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@intercept6 I don't think so because it also describes the following:

3. neither of 1 or 2 but still want to add something to this as non-Japanese point of view.
4. with a better name suggestion

I don't interpret "not only non-Japanese point of view" as forcing this discussion to limit a person that gives opinions to only non-Japanese, because it allows answer to somebody's question and/or opinion in another aspect, even if Japanese say something.

If you assert to clarify it, I agree it.

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@blacklistisnotracist

so you're saying Japanese people didn't feel anything before the tsunami in 2011 (and the songs and movies are the evidence of this claim) but after that the word became sensitive and the usage of tsunami has been problematic since then?

Yes, I said so.

I believe your values are changed after coronavirus. Tsunami makes values of Japanese change so.

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@zacky1972
I think that I am trying to limit my opinion by nationality.
Of course, this may be my misunderstanding.

If so, I would like to make it clear that I do not limit my opinion.

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@inductor I agree your opinion.

I worry if Google won't reply this issue. So, what about setting deadlines for when we need to be silent?

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To @inductor

To avoid miss communication by my bad English, I wrote my own thinking in Japanese.
First, I paste Google Translation of my Japanese comment. Because, I have little time now, and I believe it is very accurate one ;)
Next, I paste my original Japanese comment.

ADD: すいません。投稿してみたら、異常に長くてビックリしました。少し朝早く起きたため、テンションが高く、内容や言葉遣いが攻撃的だったりすれば、申し訳ありません。ただ、他の方と同様に、書かずにはおれませんでした。。

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Internally, the Tsunami Security Scanner is part of a bigger system that we initially called the "Tsunami Early Warning System".

You should have changed the name when forking like Borg.

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5d19a32 Thank you for the update.

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